PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 18, 2019 8:32:33 GMT -7
Meridith, can you get him to take and hopeful keep it down— just the high fiber food in a liquid he is vomiting maybe with larger amt of food??? Perhaps you could get him to take the one teaspoon of pumpkin or other high fiber food if mixed with some yummy no fat/no or low salt meat broth. With vomiting the idea is very small amt— wait to see if he holds it down. So with that principal, give one tsp of the fiberfood/liquid, wait 30-60 min to see if he holds it down. Then continue with another tsp/wait until he has consumed the concoction. Plain pureed canned pumpkin is a magical fruit - its high fiber can firm up stools and help with diarrhea or loosen the stool to help with constipation. NOTE: alternatives are really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potatoe. --To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal and soak overnight for hydration. At mealtime add one teaspoon of plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day. --NOTE: More than 1 tsp high fiber a day and not enough liquid will firm up stools
As always, the classic first thing that comes to mind first with red or black tarry looking blood in poop or in vomit is the Meloxicam is the cuprit and the blood is from a bleeding ulcer. With so much going on with Tempo, it is not clear what to blame blood in vomit on. So the more prudent action is to give more weight to address the likelihood there is a serious bleeding ulcer problem vs. a lessor issue of vomit due to constipation. This is the usual when Pepcid alone is not enough protection for the stomach lining. Vets then add sucralfate for it special properties of being able to gel coat over the disrupted mucous lining areas of the stomach (where the ulcer is) and aid in healing. Pepcid AC suppresses acids but does not coat damaged areas of the stomach lining. Meridith, you are dealing with a vet who is very uncomfortable with his knowledge of IVDD and very clear he is not able to provide help for Tempo. Now is the time to make that long drive to wherever is necessary. In my own country, it was a 5 hr drive from Montana to Washington State University for a neuro consult. A consultation with a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) is not just for the purpose of pursuing a surgery, but in Tempo's case for seeking the right meds a local general vet is not comfortable in using. -- If this were to be bleeding ulcers it could end in a deadly perforated stomach lining -- To stay on pain meds and an anti-inflammatory he needs to be able to hold meds/food down. -- He really does need the help of a vet who knows IVDD promptly. There are DVMs who know IVDD, but finding them for you in such a rural setting may take time. Tempo does not have time (if this is a bleeding ulcer). A specialist consult can shortcut getting Tempo the help he needs soonest possible with highest hopes you will say it will be today. A knowledgeable vet needs to sort out the many neglected issues of correct meds, stomach protection, likely ulcer treatment. Board-certified surgical specialists can be found at University vet teaching hospitals. You can locate these veterinary neuro surgeons (ACVIM) here: find.vetspecialists.com I searched for "Ontario, Canada" I found quite a number of Neuro's listed in different cities in Ontario. The term "down" notes an emergency to vets and the need to be seen quickly. A downed dog can't move their back legs. Please keep us posted
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Meredith & Tempo
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Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 18, 2019 9:39:01 GMT -7
11:30am 8/18/2019 Reported to my by husband trying mineral oil + qtip to stimulate for a bowel movement that he has no anal reflex, that his bum is "loose"
He ate only HALF of his kibble but ate all the pumpkin this morning. I called BC breeder for advice, she advised giving a little more pumpkin or 1/2 or less teaspoon mineral oil to stimulate for a BM.
We are moving forward with medication even though he cant keep the pepcid ac down.
As I am writing this, husband has reported he has lost his appetite and getting him to take his medicine is proving very difficult. (But he has been successful)
Hoping we can keep the medicine down at this point and hoping for some form of BM...
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 18, 2019 9:43:45 GMT -7
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Meredith & Tempo
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Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 18, 2019 10:51:19 GMT -7
Ontario is very big, I did a search and the closest one was 20 hours drive. We are doing the best we can here and reporting things as we see them. It is frustrating to read to do something we cannot do. Its not an option and we know the bind we are in. We are calling people and using the resources we have, taking him to a nero or specialist isnt an option.
The blood was very LIGHT spec of blood, just enough to notice. It was not a dark red, or tar like.
He is holding down his food so far and husband reporting he is passed out sleeping soundly with calm shallow breaths.
Next dose of pepcid ac, painkiller tonight with a light meal with pumpkin will be at closer to 11-12pm mark because of all the issues.
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 16 lbs. Meloxicam as of 8/14 : ?mg (0.35mL) 1x/day for 2 days as of 8/16 STOPPED as of 8/17: ?mgs (0.35mL) 1x/day for ? days, then test stop _pain/_neuro Vomit 2hrs after meds 9/17 a.m. Vomit directly after Pepcid alone 8/17 pm Gabapentin 100mgs 2x/day as of 8/16 Pepcid AC (famotidine) 5mgs 2x/day]
Writing on this forum has helped me keep track of things. This is overwhelming.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 18, 2019 11:23:27 GMT -7
Meredith, yes, having the history of Tempo on the Forum is an advantageous thing for us too. I'm so glad to hear he's holding his food down and soundly sleeping right now.
bright red blood indicates the blood had not been digested yet with the stomach acids or the bright red did not come from the stomach but mabe higher up in the esophagus. Dark black tarry looking bood would shows the blood had been digested in the stomach.
We worry about how Tempo is doing. Thank you for keeping us posted!
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Meredith & Tempo
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Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 19, 2019 4:35:18 GMT -7
Tempo had a slowed down appetite 8/18/2019. Morning wasn't so bad, he ate 85% of his food, but thats unusual for him. Supper time he ate only a few kibble and that's because I put them in his mouth. Most he was spitting out.
I gave him a dollop of Nutrical I had on hand and gave him his pain meds. He kept everything down.
This morning 8/19/2019 Total lack of wanting to eat.
Husband says he felt like he was resisting him when he was urinating him (or could be in our heads that he was-is this possible he is recovering bladder function and he was trying to hold in pee-or was he just not doing the method right-unsure)
Pepcid AC in his system, have to wait a bit, he has food in his crate but no interest. If he doesn't eat I might try and syringe some canned food I bought yesterday, and/or Nutrical so he has food for his Meloxican and Gabapentin.
We have also had a few #2 nuggets. He is showing signs of loosing weight, as he was a "PROPER weight" for a dachshund of his build-Big bone mini male at 16#.
His visible sign of loss of weight, sunken hips, and ribs are a tad too raised for him to not want to eat-he would be gorging himself at this state. He did guard his food from his buddy kitty Bee that was sniffing his enclosure by showing teeth. So mentally hes "there."
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 19, 2019 5:11:47 GMT -7
I do wish you could get Sucralfate on board. What was the vet's objection to giving Sucralfate? I don't remember ever seeing a vet not want to give that to a dog having GI issues. Please keep the vet apprised of Tempo's lack of appetite and loss of weight and continue to strongly advocate for Sucralfate.
Not wanting to eat can also be a sign of pain. With the vomiting it's assumed that it's due to a GI issue but do keep an eye out for any other sign of pain that would confirm that Tempo's pain is not completely under control. For your convenience, here are the signs of pain again:
◻︎ restless, pacing, can’t find a comfortable position ◻︎reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎shivering-trembling ◻︎yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎slow to move ◻︎tight tense tummy ◻︎arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎ head held high or nose to the ground. ◻︎looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. ◻︎ not eating due to pain of moving jaw with a neck disc or pain of back disc ◻︎ holds front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ◻︎not their normal perky selves
When a dog's bladder control starts to return, there may well be resistance to having their bladder expressed. Try a sniff and pee test occasionally. Carry Tempo out to a spot where he or another dog has peed before, support his hind end but not under his belly, let him sniff and see if he can release urine. If he can, then bladder control is returning. You should try to express again after he's gone on his own to be sure that his bladder is completely empty.
Usually wagging of tail when happy or leg movement is seen before bladder control returns. Resistance when being expressed can also be due to pain from a UTI. UTIs are common with an incontinent dog. It would be a good idea to take in a urine sample to have it tested if this resistance continues but he still can't pass a sniff and pee test. It should not be necessary to take Tempo in to the vet's office for his urine to be tested - just a sample is needed.
A tight, tense belly is also a sign of pain. Was Tempo's belly tight and tense before your husband started to express him? Tempo is only on one pain med and at that only twice a day when three times a day is best.
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Meredith & Tempo
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Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 19, 2019 7:35:06 GMT -7
Good morning
8/19/2019 6-7AM we administered Pepcid AC. 8AM-9AM I tried everything to get him to eat. At about 8:30AM by handing him each kibble, a lightbulb came on for him and he started eating, and ate about 75% of 1/2cup of food. Then the light switch turned off and he refused any more. He took breaks and drank from his water bowl. It is very peculiar actions. He would turn his head down to the food bowl but not want to eat, and he actively gets water from the same position bowl.
Pumpkin dose was administered. Meloxican/Gabapentin dose was administered. Small dab of Nutrical just to be safe.
◻︎reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions. He shifts very little because hes in a limited space. He can sit up, and kinda shuffle around to find a position or get water. But I dont notice any signs of distress or pain when hes active (medicine also zonks him out-Gabapentin)
◻︎ not eating due to pain of moving jaw with a neck disc or pain of back disc This could be a possibility
◻︎not their normal perky selves Due to the medical issues/medicine
Right now the way we have him set up in the new crate, which is almost an exact box shape, he is way more comfortable and is not moving around/getting "bound up" The other set up was more narrow, and was causing him when he was trying to turn to get "stuck." This crate has a bolster bedding raised lip that he lays against and puts his head on.
I will call the vet again and ask for the Sucralfate. I feel I might have to lie and be dramatic about him not eating and vomiting/loss of weight more and see what he will do/say.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 19, 2019 8:08:49 GMT -7
Meredith, if he can hold the Pepcid AC down, then possibly he is starting to get benefit of suppression of acid production giving him less nausea and a bit increased interest in eating. Fingers crossed he will continue to improve in his eating. His body is performing lots of repair jobs, so he needs the calories and nutrients eating well will provide. Are you soaking that kibble in equal part liquid, such as a yummy no fat, no salt homemade meat broth? Boil/simmer a hamburger patty or chicken piece in about a cup of water. Cool. Discard fat disk at top. If chicken, debone, deskin and trash. 1-2 teaspoons of the meat can go on top of soaked kibble meal for more yumminess. Giving pumpkin puree without extra moisture can cause constipation. Were his poop nuggets showing signs of constipation- hard/dry, not normal consistency? Glad to hear he now has a recovery suite that is large enough for him to easily turn around in and why lying down to fully stretch out his legs. Let us know if you are successful in getting the sucralfate Rx.
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Meredith & Tempo
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Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 19, 2019 10:38:46 GMT -7
Good afternoon,
I will be trying to make the broth tonight/tomorrow.
I would say his #2s are dehydrated too much. I have been giving him extra water by syringe and he has been taking in water but I dont think enough for my liking.
The pumpkin puree is homemade from real pumpkin and is very high water content to begin with, and I am diluting it 1 to 3 anyways to keep water in him.
Also keeping a pureed cranberry as well for UTI preventive measures in him a day.
Lots of things we are doing. I called the vet and awaiting his return call as he was busy.
Mer
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Meredith & Tempo
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Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 19, 2019 18:02:42 GMT -7
8:00PM 8/19/2019
I told the vet Tempo is loosing weight, loss of appetite and throwing up bright blood (exaggeration to get a RX for the Sulcrafate) I asked again for the Sulcrafate or something similar to try and ease his stomach and help with his GI.
He again suggested euthanasia. I said if he needed to be in a wheel chair that would be our route over that if his quality of life was good enough.
He then suggested we bring him in, to be put on IV and put on strong opiods. He also suggested we stop Meloxicam, so he wouldnt have that on board to fight off the inflammation.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 19, 2019 18:20:54 GMT -7
Meredith, you simply have a vet who feels very uncomfortable in dealing with this disease and not open to learn what you have learned here and thus is simply not the vet to be on Tempo's health care team. Some dogs have only one disc episode their entire life while other can have multiple ones. So it would be the best idea to see if it is possible to locate a new vet...I know you live very rural.
Is he still keeping food and meds down? If "yes", then Pepcid Ac may be getting those acids suppressed. What is your observations if there are any signs of pain still happening?
How many does of meloxicam do you have left. Most vets will try a 7 or 14-day course before doing a test stop for _pain/_neuro
Hpw many 100 mg capsules to you have left?
Hope that Tempo will be able to resolve all inflammation with the Meloxicam doses you have in hand. If not perhaps this vet will at least have the mercy to Rx what is needed if that time should come.
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Meredith & Tempo
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Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 19, 2019 20:08:04 GMT -7
Meloxican we have about 15 days worth maybe. Gabapentin 25 pills so enough for a 2 weeks at 2 per day.
He is keeping everything down but he has a serious drop in appetite. I am hand feeding him kibble, I think he ate 10 kibbles between me and hubby this afternoon. He got a dollop of Nutrical (which he LOVES and gobbles down...go figure) I am squirting water in his mouth via syringe and pumpkin juice.
His pee seems normal, and good amount/hydrated. His #2 is back too normal at this point Id say, the last few we got out had a sheen to it(moisture) that it didnt have before...Id never thought Id be describing my boy's poo online but here we are.
We are looking into other vets at this point. I am not happy with things...Since he told me to stop Meloxican, I wonder if in 2 weeks if we dont communicate that he would forget he told us to and would RX more... Because I dont think we should stop the Meloxican.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 20, 2019 5:41:01 GMT -7
At some point, usually 7-14 days, most vets will call for a stopping of the anti-inflammatory and pain meds to test for pain/swelling. I believe Tempo has been on Meloxicam for a total of 5 days. You could try to stop the Meloxicam and Gabapentin in a couple of days to test for pain/swelling. You don't want Tempo on these meds for any longer than absolutely necessary, especially since he's showing signs of GI distress. You'll need to keep this vet in the loop of what you're doing until you can find another vet. If no sign of pain returns with the stopping of those meds, then you have proof that the swelling has resolved and no more meds are needed. If pain returns, then there is still swelling and still a need for all meds for a bit longer. More info on the inflammation phase of IVDD here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmBe sure to soften his hard kibble to make it easier for him to chew in case this is a neck injury. If a disc in his neck has been damaged, chewing something hard like kibble will be very painful. Chewing hard kibble would not be beneficial in helping the damaged disc to heal or for the swelling to resolve and will just keep aggravating the damaged disc.
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Meredith & Tempo
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Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 20, 2019 6:48:31 GMT -7
That's strange, I specifically asked him how long can Tempo be on medicine like Meloxican and he said that he has had dogs on it for years...Seemed like a long term medicine by the way he said it. Maybe he meant on it and off it for years?
I am totally confused as to what to do with my vet, as I have been instructed by him to do things, I don't do them, and I've reported worse conditions to try and get other medicine which was denied.
I wasnt ever told by the vet to do Pepcid AC that helped him so far keep things down and protect stomach. When I told him I was giving it to help, the attitude was well...you can do that, not oh yes, thats a great preventative measure you are taking with medicine like this. Wasnt told to add pumpkin to stop his constipation so he wouldnt be vomiting.
If we would have done a direct switch to the Prednizone like instructed without the protective medicine he could have been on a very different path by now, probably with ulcers and vomiting profusely.
I guess I have a few days to kinda figure out our next steps...
So if we stop both medicine, and nothing changes; that means he is paralyzed? If he still shows signs of pain/irritation then there still is swelling to try and take care of? If nothing changes and he is fully paralyzed, what is next? Crate rest for 8 weeks and see if things come back with no medicines? Or ask for different less strong medicine? NSAIDs
Aspirin, ETOGESIC (etodolac), RIMADYL (carprofen), METACAM (meloxicam), DERAMAXX (deracoxib), LOXICOM (meloxicam), PREVICOX (firocoxib), ZUBRIN (tepoxalin), NOVOX (carprofen), Ketoprofen, GALLIPRANT (grapriprant)
Any one sign is enough to STOP giving the drug to your dog and call your veterinarian immediately! Not eating or eating less Lethargy, depression, changes in behavior Seems sleepy but I am thinking its from the pain med? Vomiting-was happening-not anymore for a while Diarrhea, red or black tarry-colored stool Yellowing of gums, skin, or the whites of the eyes Change in drinking Changes in skin (scabs, redness, or scratching)
This is with the MELOXICAN as the culprit, this is on the link Marjorie sent. He is eating less, and I find he isnt drinking enough so I am syringing water/pumpkin 'juice' to him.
So do we stop Meloxicam NOW like the vet said or ...keep going for 7 full days? But then his reaction to swelling coming back will be delayed to tell the vet. "Yes you told me to stop the Meloxicam 8/19 but I waited till 8/22 and now we have a reaction of _________"
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Meredith & Tempo
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Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 20, 2019 7:59:09 GMT -7
Well...
The damn beef broth did the trick...holy cow. He practically wolfed down ALL of his food and drank a normal amount. Jeezus. What a spoiled wienie! I was trying to get him to eat to take his medicine and he just wouldnt have it. Boiled up the beef broth, soaked his kibble in it for a bit, it was still a bit crunchy but soft on the outside...and he went to town.
Pepcid AC down + dollop of Nutrical because I wasnt confident in him eating too much, Food down, cranberry and pumpkin down...now for medicine.
What a rollercoaster...
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 20, 2019 8:24:45 GMT -7
Wonderful, Meredith! Now you know that the Meloxicam can be continued for awhile longer. That hard kibble does need to be softened so it's not painful for Tempo to eat. You can actually soften the kibble over night so it's nice and soft for him. Yes, there are some dogs who stay on Meloxicam long term, the lowest dose possible, but there are side effects and the only job the Meloxicam has is to resolve the swelling so once the swelling is gone, then there is no longer a need for Meloxicam. Meloxicam does not heal nerve damage. The only thing that heals nerve damage is time and that can take months, even a year or more.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 20, 2019 9:01:05 GMT -7
Meredith, finding that new vet can't come soon enough. Tempo needs the guidance of a vet confident in their knowledge of IVDD. NOTE: just read your sucess in getting him to eat with meat broth....that's a game changer if he keeps it down.How about contacting the Canadian Dachshund Rescue (Ontario) for some leads on a general DVM vet closest to your city who is IVDD knowledgable. www.canadiandachshundrescue.com/contact-us/None of us here are vets. What we can do is give you some guidance in discussing, advocating for things, how and what to monitor for as you are the eyes and ears for the vet in how Tempo is doing at home. Where possible while you are busy reading and getting up to speed on IVDD, we can point you to information that is pertinent to what's happening. So if we stop both medicine, and nothing changes; that means he is paralyzed?
The only things that medications do is to get the swelling down and be in comfort from pain during the 7-30 days it may take for all inflammation to be resolved. The body self heals nerves over time all on its own. There are no meds that heal nerves The body self heals the wall of the disc with little movement. The scar tissue formed takes 8 weeks. Reading helps to sort out the 4 different phases of healing, how long and what things do the healing for each phase. 1) Quick Summary of 4 phases of healing. Print out to keep in mind, place on the fridge: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm 2) How all anti-inflammatories work during a disc episode: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmIf he still shows signs of pain/irritation then there still is swelling to try and take care of? No one can knows how long a course of Meloxicam should be for. So all vets simply take a guess by Rxing maybe a 5-7 day course. Some even might try a 14 day course. The test stop, reveals if all pain is gone or another course is needed. All anti-inflammatory drugs do come with adverse side effects. That is the reason why vets who practice safe medicine try a test stop so as not to have the dog on any longer than necessary. If nothing changes and he is fully paralyzed, what is next? Once nerves have received a good deal of damage, they can take longer than it takes to get the swelling down in the spinal cord for nerve function to return to the various parts of the body. The nerves would have to regenerate enough to allow tail wagging, bladder control and good leg control. Learning to walk again is a combination of the brain connecting to the legs and the muscles getting strong again and learning the art of walking and foot placement... just like a baby has to learn how to walk. So we do not necessarily look for complete nerve function to return within the 8 weeks of crate rest... it may... but the main focus is for pain to be gone and the disc itself to heal during crate rest. At the end of 8 weeks when it is safe for the then healed disc, at home PT can begin, it can best be judged whether to look into a wheelchair at that time so that the dog can enjoy life while waiting on more nerve function repair to take place OR decide if money is better spent on pursuit of formal PT if you are seeing signs of some leg movement. Crate rest for 8 weeks and see if things come back with no medicines? Or ask for different less strong medicine? Nerve function repair may or may not come back in the short time of 8 weeks the disc needs time to heal in. The ONLY job that an anti-inflammatory drug does is to bring down and fully resolve all painful swelling around the spinal cord. The STOP TEST gives the proof. There are no medications that can aid the body in its job of self repairing nerves.
Meloxicam side effects Here is an example that having a knowledgeable vet would make life easier for you, less stress cause they would be on Tempo's side and you'd be able to work with that vet, discuss your concerns. Clearly we are not vets and we don't want you to think we act instead of a vet. We do try to help you sort things out so that you can best discuss things with the vet you have hired to be on Tempo's IVDD health care team. --- Not or less eating is a concern. You report Tempo can keep food down with the aid of Pepcid AC now. At this point, since he loves the nutrical, give an extra squirt with each kibble piece he takes. Along with the hand feeding kibble, encourage more eating with whatever other combo of yummies (try to keep it low fat/oil to avoid confusing loose to diarrhea stools). Crumbled pieces of chicken/hamburger. Microwaved mashed hi-fiber/calorie/minerals sweet potato with meat broth can be a sub for the less caloric pumpkin puree.- --- The amount of liquid intake is a combo of what he laps up and what is contained in his food. Do you offer him slightly warmed meat broth or a frozen broth cube to lick on as a means to keep him hydrated. So it may be prudent at the 5 day or 7-day point to go ahead and do the test stop of Meloxicam along with stopping gabapentin and Pepcid AC to see if all swelling is finally gone.
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Meredith & Tempo
New Member
Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 20, 2019 9:51:46 GMT -7
Our little man cub really appreciates everyone's efforts... We are reading everything and letting everything soak in and absorb. Should we be massaging his paw pads and tail at this point? To stimulate anything or is it pointless? And I am seeing muscle tone very poor in his hind quarters already. Is there anything I can be doing now or in the near future? Plans to stop I guess the meds 8/21 or 8/22 to see what happens. I made a post but lost it when trying to send a picture.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Aug 20, 2019 13:59:20 GMT -7
It is okay to gently massage Tempo's paws. Nerve healing just takes time. It is very early on in Tempo's healing. After crate rest is over give a thought to aqua therapy if that is available to you. After Frankie's surgery he was still paralyzed. There had been little or no progress in his recovery. We took him to aqua therapy where he walked on an underwater treadmill. I say walked but in his first few sessions the therapist knelt behind him in the tank and moved his legs. The buoyancy of the water held Frankie up as he could not stand. It might be that when the therapist moved his legs he started to remember how to walk. In any case, Frankie regained his ability to walk. I sling walked Frankie into the therapist's office holding up his completely inert back legs. Two months later, Frankie was walking into the office by himself. Other dogs on this list have also had succcess with this. This is how it looks: We have other info on water therapy you can do at home www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy
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Meredith & Tempo
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Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 21, 2019 16:12:26 GMT -7
We are on the fence about stopping his medicine tomorrow? A new observation is that he is woof-barking-whining? Its a sharp WOOF sound he is making, we think its a bark but hes too weak so it comes out as a puny ARF or WOOOOF thats muted/subdued. We rush to check on him but nothing is noticeable, he is just laying there relaxed. He is also getting stiff front legs. I have been flexing and bending his limbs, but for the past few days I have been noticing he isnt sitting up as much as before. 8/21/2019. First poop self released by my boy! I’m not sure if he actually pushed it or it was just forced out All poos since all of this have been ‘expressed out / helped out’. Are we seeing some light at the tunnel? Is this the first signs of something?
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 21, 2019 20:31:27 GMT -7
Is he swallowing, drinking liquids from a bowl? About his anus— does the muscle close tight to a normal state or does it kind of hang open? is he still eating a good amount as you described once his kibble had meat broth over it? Today was he using his front legs sit up? Is his breathing normal? No increased respiration/ labored breathing (short, open-mouthed, abdominal breaths) Normal temperature? Normal rectal temperature is 100.5 to 102.5 degrees Fahrenheit
Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet
Expressing for poop is not the health issue expressing for urine is. The body will move poop through the digestive tube via relexes. Brain control for pooping means the brain can direct the anus to stay closed, til the brain approves of an appropriate place. No control means reflexes open the anus any where any time.. Expressing is to avoid accidents that would upset Tempo finding poop where he sleeps
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Meredith & Tempo
New Member
Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 21, 2019 21:32:11 GMT -7
Yes he is drinking and eating from a bowl but from a half laying/half trying to sit up position. The pee pads are causing slipping problems. I have been waiting on some non slip reusable fancy pee pads. Appetite is excellent. Breathes are normal. Temp normal. His bum [anus] is still “relaxed”
The concern is he is whining now off and on. The “barking noise” is random as well. Is he getting some feeling back even with the medicine going and he is reacting to that ?
No tail movement but hubby and I felt little twinges in his back feet. It could all be in our heads because we are wishing for signs. Hubby also says he is resisting on releasing his bladder. Usually he dribbles while laying and this afternoon his pad was totally dribble free for a few hours. Then the poo showed up.
Some things seem to be happening today. Few hours sleep and we will be checking in on him. The way we are staggering things he is not uncheck for more than 3-4 hours 24 hours a day.
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Meredith & Tempo
New Member
Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 22, 2019 4:51:55 GMT -7
Good morning. I say one thing, then take it back it seems...Tempo's recovery is just going to be wonky. We have to be having some bladder control back, as he went all night with NO dribbling at all. Husband (who did most of the dirty work with #2s...) thinks his bum is regaining a bit, but not at all near where it should be. Taking it back-He is now not really wanting or able to sit up to drink/eat. This morning he seems stiff in the front legs or ? not sure what is going on. I had to 90% help him/support him in drinking and eating this morning.We continued the doses of meloxicam and gabapentin...We feel he is feeling something as he is whining, and thats not like him. Is it possible to get bowel and bladder control but have loss of tail movement or something bizarre... Are we loosing upper body support because he is laying down for this long with little sitting up? I am massaging and manipulating his front legs/paws. Massaging neck/shoulders. I am at a loss at what to do with loosing upper body self support.
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Meredith & Tempo
New Member
Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 22, 2019 5:03:32 GMT -7
Well geeze...I lost internet as I hit enter and the post I made disappeared...
I say one thing and take it back...Tempos recovery is I guess just gonna be wonky.
He has to be regaining bladder control as he held his urine all night, NO DRIBBLING AT ALL, pad was DRY as a bone till we expressed him. Husband - who has dealt with the most #2- says he thinks he has regained some rigidness to his [anus], bum but now where near where it is suppose to be.
Is it possible to not regain things back in that set order, as we are seeing bladder control/some rectal stiffness, but no tail wagging.
Taking a step back-He did not want to or could not sit up this morning to eat/drink. I had to support him 90%+. I think he is loosing upper body self support from laying way too much.
I am massaging/manipulating his legs/paws. I am at a loss of how to help retain his upper body if we cannot move him.
He still took the meloxicam and gabapentin, as we feel he is feeling something with the whining he is doing (not like Tempo at all and he hasnt done the whining till now)
I am terrified to take him off the pain meds if we give him a spike of inflammation and pain when he is improving... Should I call the vet and tell him our improvements? See what he says?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 22, 2019 7:09:14 GMT -7
I'm sorry to hear that Tempo's front legs are showing signs of weakness, Meredith. Neck injuries can affect both the hind legs and the front legs if the injury is severe enough. IF this is a worsening of neuro function, it would not be time to stop the meds. In fact, it would be wise to make that switch from Meloxicam to Prednisone but that switch without a washout period should only be made with TWO stomach protectors on board - both Pepcid AC and Sucralfate - and you have not as yet found a vet willing to do that. Wonderful news that you're seeing signs of the return of bladder control. Yes, nerve healing can sometimes return in different ways. My Jeremy never regained bladder/bowel control though he's walking. Please try to renew your efforts today to find a better vet for Tempo and hopefully one closer to you where you won't have to travel far since a new vet will want to see Tempo. Worsening of neuro function is an emergency situation. You should let his present vet know ASAP of this situation with the front legs to get his input. Please try not to be alarmed. Tempo can still heal from this with the right treatment. Having a good vet on board can make all the difference. We have a Vet Recommendation board where our members have shared information: dodgerslist.boards.net/board/10/guidelines-posting and a compilation of those recommendations are here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/surgerycosts.htmCVMA or ACMV would indicate Board-certified in Canada.
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Meredith & Tempo
New Member
Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 22, 2019 8:44:06 GMT -7
I dont understand this.
He never showed signs of NECK, and all symptoms this far has been back issues only.
He is now unable to sit up, or hold his head up, as if its too much weight.
The only way N,E,W [??] is by plane, traveling south by vehicle is the only way to get to the vet that is 3 hrs drive one way...I cant "get to another vet" or "find a closer vet"
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 16 lbs. Meloxicam as of 8/14 : ?mg (0.35mL) 1x/day for 2 days as of 8/16 STOPPED as of 8/17: ?mgs (0.35mL) 1x/day for ? days, then test stop _pain/_neuro Gabapentin 100mgs 2x/day as of 8/16 Pepcid AC (famotidine) 5mgs 2x/day started 8/19
Observations 8/19 continued drop in ▼appetite 8/20 first time ▲wolfed down all food and drank normal amt 8/21 front legs weaker, not ▼sitting up as much 8/21 8pm EST ▼puny/muted woof 8/21 12:30pm EST now ▼half laying/sitting to drink or eat 8/22 11 ESTam ▼unable to sit up at all to eat/drink]
All the vets on the list are super duper far away, will they talk via phone or expect a visit and such to do anything...I am thinking they wont talk on the phone as anything they give is suggested and they can be reliable for when they havent seen the dog.
My current vets options: Euthanasia IV+strong opiods+staying with him, which I dont trust.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 22, 2019 8:59:12 GMT -7
Tempo has definitely shown signs of a neck injury, Meredith. He was more comfortable with his head lying on something or propped up against the side of the crate. I think you also said he was holding his head up at an odd angle. He also wouldn't eat until you began to soften his kibble with beef broth. Possibly it was the taste of the broth that encouraged him to eat or possibly it had been too painful to chew hard kibble due to a neck injury. Did the vet specifically find pain at some point in the back because the way Tempo has been acting indicate a neck injury.
What IV is the vet proposing? I hope not a steroid without proper stomach protection. Opiods would not help any worsening of neuro function but only would mask any pain. His pain has been under control. Do you now see signs of pain? Has he become sensitive to touch.
Please keep us updated on any new symptoms that you may be seeing.
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Meredith & Tempo
New Member
Male - Doxie -Lost battle 8/22/2019 from Myelomalacia
Posts: 38
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Post by Meredith & Tempo on Aug 22, 2019 9:15:13 GMT -7
Just got off phone with vet 11am 8/22/2019 He suggested he is having a syndrome where the neurons in the back where the issue is are messing with the transmission to the brain, called a shared something-or-other syndrome. He suggested euthanasia again.I told him I am talking to a lot of people, and everyone is giving hope that this is something that can be dealt with and treated long term. He agreed but he is very hesitant to go down that path it seems. He suggested then that I do the switch to PREDIZONE, with NO SUCRAFATE. I told him 3 times in the conversation that I wanted Sucrafate as a preventive for ulcers, and that I have been scared the hell out of doing Predizone without it. He again said he has had no issues with dogs on Predizone, and to do it as he has been off meloxican for 2 days (WHICH IS A LIE---So he is saying 2 days off meloxican= good enough for switching) He wants Tempo in to do a reevaluation, it is Thursday. They are open Friday and Saturday for half a day. I am upset because I never lie, and now I am caught in a lie of trying to get sucrafate for the prednizone, and if I take him to the vet will he know hes on prednizone or meloxcan ? What if I wait 2 days and switch him and he doesnt have any adverse reaction and he is needing to be on prednizone, and I have screwed up.
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 22, 2019 9:29:51 GMT -7
Meredith, can you get an answer from the vet as to why he is so against giving Sucralfate? Even if he believes it isn't necessary, what harm can it do? Even if there had been a two-day washout period, that isn't enough for a switch without Sucralfate. To do a proper washout period would mean no anti-inflammatory on board to work on the swelling pressing on the nerves of the spine, which is not advisable, especially if there is a worsening of neuro function.
You'll have to be honest with the vet and tell him that Meloxicam has not in fact been stopped but that you were desperate to get Sucralfate on board.
Very disturbing that the vet agrees that this could be something that can be treated long term yet is hesitant to do so.
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