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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on May 25, 2019 16:41:48 GMT -7
[Original subject line - Worried about our baby] My name is Donna and I have a 3 year old long haired red Dachshund named Daisy Duke. Wednesday she was running and playing outside Thursday morning she could not walk or move her back legs but wagged her tail. Took her to the vet and they put her on inflammatory medication and told us she should get better. Friday she was worse and couldn’t move her tail. We took her to another vet whom told us she needed to go to the emergency vet see a neurologist and surgery because she had no tone or feeling. Paralyzed!! We took her to the emergency vet seen a neurologist and she was having surgery last night was out of surgery 5 am this morning. I may add she could not release her urine or have vowel movements I was releasing it for her We are able to go see her tomorrow we are looking for any advice possible
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
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Post by Marjorie on May 26, 2019 5:26:50 GMT -7
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Post by Ann Brittain on May 26, 2019 7:06:02 GMT -7
So sorry to hear about Daisy Duke. I understand how shocking it is when your perfectly healthy dog has an IVDD issue. Just like Daisy, our Buster had surgery after it was determined he had no deep pain sensation. With him it was a long process, but he learned to walk again.
The next few weeks of crate rest and care are the key to helping your dog recover.
As Marjorie mentioned, take advantage of the information here on Dodgerslist. It will help you understand and cope with taking proper care of your girl.
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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on May 27, 2019 11:03:42 GMT -7
We were able to visit Daisy yesterday 5/26 she looked good but still is not showing any signs of feeling in her back legs. She was very excited to see us but we were so afraid she was going to hurt herself. We were asked to visit due to her not eating we were able ti get her to eat all her food and drink so that was good. But they asked us to hold off on any other visits due to her excitement. As of today she is not eating there and we are on call to come feed her if they can not get her to eat. Her neurologist will be in to see her tonight or tomorrow morning and will access her and we may be able to bring her home. We have gone out and purchased a ez pen the one that goes in a circle and are getting things ready. I have read everything about strict crate rest and things to have for her. Is there anything else I need to know.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,479
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Post by PaulaM on May 27, 2019 12:25:55 GMT -7
Donna, do you have your list of questions for discharge day. Don't want to leave and not have something answered, right! Let us know know what the surgeon directs for at home PT and how many weeks of crate rest including the at home PT he want for Daisy. The usually for going home is that all pain is currently being cover via pills which will also be Rx for at home. If she does not have bladder control, then you will get a lesson. Important is she has a drink of water an hour before the lesson so there is something for you to practice on, feel for, etc. Viewing this video and the tips will allow you to get more out of the hands-on-top-of-your-hands type of expressing lesson the surgeon gives you IF, if she does not yet have bladder control: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm
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Post by Ann Brittain on May 27, 2019 13:37:55 GMT -7
You're smart to get yourself and your home prepared for Daisy to come home by reading the information available here on Dodgerslist.
Crate rest and proper medication are key to help her nerves heal. Even if she shows signs of improvement don't fall into the trap of letting her become too active. I know how hard that can be once a doxie decides they're ready to move, but stay strong.
The next few weeks will go by faster than you think.
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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on May 29, 2019 8:15:40 GMT -7
Thank you ladies I have read and watched all the video and articles on this site in which I have found very helpful. She did not come home last night but we did get to visit her. Good news from the surgeon today. She has feeling in both back legs which is an improvement. I do believe we are prepared for her home coming. I know we have a long hard road ahead of us but we got this I have learned how to express her bladder and am confident I can do it with no problems. As for PT I believe I will have no problems with that but I am sure I will have some questions and I believe this site can help me. Being a nurse is a plus in this case but I am a nurse if people not fur babies
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,479
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Post by PaulaM on May 29, 2019 8:48:59 GMT -7
Donna, so wonderful to hear deep pain sensation is now in both back legs. Boy, does that bode well for even more nerve repair to take place!
Important is to have confidence that you can care for your little patient and a can-do attitude. Reading and watching the videos helps in upping your IVDD knowledge. Kudos to you, gal! We look forward to more updates as you get them and when Daisy is expected by home.
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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on May 30, 2019 8:17:52 GMT -7
As of now Daisy will be coming home sometime this evening. She has more pain sensation in her hind legs today and the Dr is very optimistic!! I am getting my list ready now for questions to ask. Thank you ladies so much
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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on May 31, 2019 8:43:51 GMT -7
So Daisy came home last night 5/31. She only can home on tramadol 50mg nothing else. [Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 16.5lbs tramadol 50 mgs 2x/day]
I asked the neurologist about the crate rest and how long to keep her confined he said I didn’t have to. I only had to crate her if we were not home. I am very confused after reading everything on this site and buying pretty much every thing you have suggested. I read and research everything and nothing I read matches anything he said. I had bought a Z pen and am keeping her in that I even slept in it with her last night. We got no sleep though she was very restless. I could not express her bladder last night it this morning so I took her to her vet at 8am and he expressed it for me and told me to keep practicing The neurologist also said she had pain sensation in both legs and muscle tone but I don’t see any of that either. She is happy comfortable and doing well. She can not walk and can not release her bowels or urinate. I know this takes time but again I am so confused
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,479
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Post by PaulaM on May 31, 2019 9:47:34 GMT -7
Donna is your neuro (DVM, Diplomate ACVIM) been a surgeon for many years or rather recently received his diploma? I don't think we've ever had a neuro not Rxing crate rest which would include supervised and controlled at home PT. Here is the thinking behind post-op crate rest with appropriate PT. So this is why we follow the many surgeons wanting crate rest (which includes directed PT). Dog's can dart off in a blink of an eye at any unusual sound, some movement they see out a window, etc. When you take Daise out of her recovery suite, it will be an eye on her situation. You will have control over her speed and darting off by used a harness/leash or being inside of an expen area. They back in the recovery suite to rest after her major operation. The neuro is likely talking about deep pain sensation. This is the first neuro function to return which bodes well for nerve healing to take place!! The nerves deepest inside the spinal cord are the last to be lost and the first to come back. With deep pain sensation back, a dog can then recognize noxious stimulation. It is not something you would see just looking at Daisy, but rather a thing the neuro tests for and something difficult for a general DVM to correctly identify. Nerves heal typically in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a standing position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htmWhen a dog can not move their legs on their own it is well known that owners need to keep joints flexible and keep up muscle circulation. Take a look at the post operation PT below one can do at home and ask your surgeon which ones would be ok for you to do for Daisy. Appropriate physical therapy can help maintain the muscles with lost nerve connection. Therapy keeps muscles in optimal condition while in wait to receive regenerating axon terminals. Post-op PT for the paralyzed IVDD dog: Let us know that 50 mgs of tramadol is keeping all pain in control. What is the range of frequencies (every 8hrs or every 12 hrs Rx'd?) And how often are you actually giving?
How much does Daisy weigh?
— Methocarbamol works on the pain of muscle spasms. — Tramadol is the general pain reliever. — Gabapentin works on nerve pain. There should be no sign of pain from one dose of meds to the next. Have no patience with pain as it does hinder healing. Look for your dog to be acting their normal, perky self when pain is fully under control round the clock.
SIGNS OF PAIN: ◻︎ shivering-trembling ◻︎ yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎ slow to move ◻︎ tight tense tummy ◻︎ arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎ head held high or nose to the ground. ◻︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ◻︎ slow or reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎ looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. ◻︎ not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain ◻︎ holds front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ◻︎ not their normal perky selves
Donna, don't hesitate to go back to the vet and YOU express there in the clinic. Have the vet or his vet tech check your work, your technique. This is the way many of us have learned to perfect this new skill, practice, re-refresh on the tips and video and if need be go back to your vet's clinic for more pointers. They need to watch YOU express not do it for you.
Express for poop and express for urine: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm
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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on May 31, 2019 14:19:22 GMT -7
Daisy’s neurologist is a DVM his name is Larry Gainsburg In Catonsville MD. I also did research on him and he was the first neurologist to open in 1987. He has been practicing for 32 years. He is involved in trails and other things. Daisy is 16 16.5 pounds and the 50mg doze of tramadol is every 12 hours but I can give it to her every 8 if I think she needs it. I will be keeping her in her ex pen only taking her out to go outside to see if she will urinate on her own or poo. Today I took her to work she stayed in her crate. We came home we took her out and let her walk using a scarf as a sling. I did a few of the exercises ROM that is in the videos you sent. She goes back to neurologist on Monday. I did call today and ask about the pain sensation and he said she had sensation when he pinched her toes and maybe I was not squeezing hard enough I was given the option to bring her in but I am going to wait until Monday I have also contacted a PT place and am waiting for a call back. I thank you so much for getting back to me, explaining things that I am confused about and supplying info and videos. I was able to express her today. Now they recommended expressing every 8 hours I have ready it should be every 4 to 5
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Post by Julie & Perry on May 31, 2019 14:41:55 GMT -7
When you first start expressing it can be difficult to get everything. So it may take more frequent attempts to get it all.
Or if your dog is on a steroid they will be thirsty and need expressing more often.
If you feel proficient at expressing Daisy and she's staying dry in between times, you could try giving it more time between expressing.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 31, 2019 14:57:12 GMT -7
If Daisy is still showing signs of pain like being restless and unable to settle give the tramadol 3x a day. Your vet has said this is okay. Tramadol does not last long in the body and may need to be taken 3x a day for full pain relief.
It is not really necessary to pinch her toes to identify Deep pain sensation (DPS). DPS is difficult for a pet parent to determine and can result in too much movement for the dog. The best thing for a pet parent to look for is a tail wag in response to a treat or happy talk. This is the stage of healing after DPS. If a dog can do a happy tail wag they have DPS.
Excellent that you were able to express Daisy today! Expressing is a skill and needs to be practiced and learned. In the beginning, while you are still learning, it is best to express closer to every three hours. As time goes by and you are more confident that you are getting all the urine out you can increase the time between expressing. You will know you are doing it correctly when Daisy stays dry between expressing sessions.
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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on Jun 1, 2019 7:24:28 GMT -7
Daisy is not on steroids just the ▲tramadol. I will start giving it to her 3 times a day because I do think she is in some discomfort at times.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 16.5lbs tramadol 50 mgs ▲3x/day]
I have been getting quit a bit of urine out now. Last night my husband and I decided to go out to dinner we were gone for maybe 3.5 hours. When we got home Daisy was drenched in urine. Her bedding was also soaked. My question is could she have peed on her own? Or am I just not getting it all out? It was a substantial amount and I expressed her before we left and again quit a bit cane out. She is not wagging her tail yet and I am starting to get concerned because the neurologist said if she doesn’t show signs of wagging her tail in a week her chances of waking again goes down. Ladies I can not thank you enough for your comments and help
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,479
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 1, 2019 9:04:38 GMT -7
Donna, glad to hear you took the higher frequency of dosing Tramadol of every 8 hrs. Let us know that now you are seeing she is fully pain free right up to the next dose of tramadol. IF not, have no patience by alerting the vet of your pain observations and advocating for gabapentin 3x/day which addresses nerve pain. There is a predictable order to the healing of nerves. FIRST deep pain sensation must correctly identified and confirmed by the surgeon * and no further need to do the neuro toe pinch test. Then the next neuro function is that of being able to do a happy tail wag. 1. Have you specifically done some happy talk or shown a yummy treat and then observed the tail with some back and forth movement? After a happy tail wag, then comes the next neuro function improvement...bladder control. * Because DPS is tricky to identify, it is best to only take the word of a board certified neuro (ACVIM) or an ortho (ACVS) rather than from a general DVM. Was difficult to find much about your surgeon. There is no website for Mid-Atlantic but did find this vet's training on LinkedIN: - 4 yrs DVM from U of Florida - 2 yrs Neuro residency at U of Penn - 2 yrs Neuro Fellowship training at NCSU - owns: Mid-Atlantic Veterinary Neurology and Neurosurgery
He did not take the boards in 1987 to get a Board Certified ACVIM designation. So technically he may not call himself a specialist in neurology. But with his extensive course work and years of neuro experience he is likely to be very qualified to identify DPS.
LEARNING to express It may take a weeks worth of expressing to begin approaching the proficiency level you need to fully void the bladder. (Don't hesitate to express in your local vet's clinic and have the vet tech there check your work and give you additional pointers). You will need to be able actually feel the shape of the bladder with your hands. The last stage of expressing the bladder becomes so flat. One hand can almost feel the fingers of the other hand the bladder is so flat and pretty much empty. That is your goal...fully voiding the bladder. So the goal is a combo of expressing often enough PLUS feeling for the flat bladder. When you have success in keeping her dry every 2-3 hrs for several sessions, then you can move up to giving it a try at every 4-6 hrs. Then every 8 hrs, especially over night when the body produces less urine anyway. Would you say she is drinking more water than normal?NERVE repair There is no person who will be able to tell you exactly when the next neuro function will come back. The only thing any person can tell you is the usual order. Having DPS confirmed means there will very, very likely be even more nerve repair to come. I've been here since 2007 and have seen over 10,000 dogs, have read updates 6 mos- a year out and see otherwise than the dire predictions surgeons give. Fortunate that the dogs themselves do not get to hear such dour predictions as they just go about the business of healing and "amazingly" and "miraculously" heal to the degree possible. Recall you have already noted seeing nerve improvement of there being DPS right after the surgery!!!
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Post by Merriem & Spike on Jun 1, 2019 12:48:52 GMT -7
Paula, I haven’t posted for awhile, but I saw this about post surgery crate rest. I remember when the surgeon who did Spikes back surgery said ‘just take him home and let him go” no crating. I know you questioned me, and rightly so. I followed his NO CRATING...and that was not good advice. I am really sorry that I didn’t listen to you than him.
Just to say you moderators know what you you are talking about.
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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on Jun 2, 2019 7:01:20 GMT -7
Thank you for all the advice and pep talk to keep our heads up during this process. We have an appt with the neurologist tomorrow at one. Daisy definitely does not like this cage rest but I know it is the best for her.
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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on Jun 2, 2019 7:03:08 GMT -7
Paula I am so sorry to hear about your fur baby. I am taking the advice of total crate rest except potty time and I do some PT with her laying with me.
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Post by Ann Brittain on Jun 2, 2019 9:46:56 GMT -7
I know how eager you are for Daisy to start showing more signs of recovery. It's difficult to be patient when you want so badly for your dog to get better and return to the fun life she had before her surgery.
It's really great news that her deep pain sensation has returned. Sometimes progress comes in baby steps not huge leaps, but each small sign of improvement is an indication that Daisy's nerves are healing.
It took us a while to be able to express Buster completely. As others have remarked, sometimes doing it more frequently will help to fully empty her bladder. We usually took Buster to a spot where he had peed or some place where other dogs have peed. I also 'massaged' his belly prior to expressing him. At times, I could tell his muscles had tensed up, so I'd wait a few minutes and try again. This method usually produced more pee.
I hope your vet has even more positive news when you see him tomorrow.
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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on Jun 3, 2019 11:27:29 GMT -7
Daisy had an appt with her neurologist and we just got home. He says she does have deep pain sensation in her hind feet and the tail wag we are seeing when we stand her is voluntary!! So good news!! I think next step is being able to express her bladder on her own? She goes back in Thursday to have her staples removed. I asked again about crate rest and he said no I didn’t have to. He was handling her like nothing was wrong with her. He held her up by her tail and walked her down the hallway. Oh my goodness I was about to faint.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,479
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 3, 2019 12:10:17 GMT -7
Donna, you are right, the next neuro function to return would be bladder control. So until you observe that bladder function has returned, you will continue to express her bladder. How to test for bladder control. Periodically every couple of days or so take her outside for the SNIFF and PEE TEST. The only way for humans to know if there is bladder control is with the “sniff and pee test.” Carry outdoors, set them on an old pee spot to sniff. Make sure the sling or your hands are not on the tummy area as that can press on the bladder. See if they will release urine on the old urine area. If urine comes out after sniffing, bladder control is returning. You should continue to do a quick express check to verify there is full voiding until you are certain it is consistently happening. Let us know what you observe. Post-op many dogs do begin some PT. PT is always supervised, controlled with a harness and leash and sling if needed. Some surgeons will call for the PT to be a walk to and from the potty place. Some have at home range of motion and massage, etc. for owners to do. Some recommend going to a rehab clinic for underwater treadmill. Watch the video for tips that you could also employ at home with a child's $10 wading pool: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy.htmThe movement of the hip joints and muscles and the changes in pressure on the paws from the underwater treadmill triggers spinal cord communication with the brain. Water bouyancy makes it easier than leg movements against gravity. There is not only the potential to regrow damaged neuronal pathyways but also for neuron to muscle re-education to learn the art of walking again. So while supervised PT can be very important, unsupervised, free reign of the house/yard can be fraught with danger before sugical sites can heal over.
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Post by Sam & PeanutB on Jun 6, 2019 9:19:23 GMT -7
So glad to hear Daisys deep pain sensation is returning. We hope this happens for our little Peanut. 💙
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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on Jun 6, 2019 10:34:30 GMT -7
Daisy got her staples out today and she handled it like a trooper!! She still is not urinating on her own but she sure does poo whenever she is. This morning on my way to work she pooed all over the place we had a mess!! This is when I take a breath and say I got this.
The neurologist did say one leg is kind of moving like she wants to walk but I don’t see it yet. I ordered her a sling since I been using a scarf. I been taking her out doing the sniff and pee test but no go. She can also start therapy so I contacted a rehab place waiting to see when I can get her in. Anyone know how expensive therapy is? She is done all her pain medication and was very antsy last night whining and barking in her pen. I had to sleep on the floor with her. This morning she was still antsy I asked the vet if she could be in pain he said no she is probably feeling better and wants to go. I got her CBD oil treats has anyone used them
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,479
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 6, 2019 12:10:56 GMT -7
Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives (ACE, alprazolam or trazodone). Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog.Place a DAP pheromone diffusor at floor level where the recovery suite is: --DOG Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/Use diffusor with one oral calmer from below:Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php 3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com We just don't know enough about CBD oil to recommend for an IVDD disc episode. Not enough scientific research has been done on it to determine how effective it would be on pain/inflammation for dogs or as a sedative and what the optimal dose would be. We know what does work (pain meds, anti-inflammatory drug and Pepcid AC) and that's all we can recommend. Make sure your vet is aware of all medications and supplements you are giving. Herbs, supplements, potions can adversely interact with the necessary big gun medications your vet has prescribed for a disc episode.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jun 6, 2019 14:06:48 GMT -7
Donna, you can express for poop, that way you don't have messes everywhere.
Dodgers List has information under their search engine at the main website.
I do this with one of my dogs and it works well.
As for therapy, I'd shop around. Prices can be different. Usually if you pay for a bundle, say 8 therapy sessions, you get a better price.
Also, I don't know if you've heard of care credit? They give you 6 months with no interest to pay pet medical expenses.
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Post by Penny & Sherman on Jun 7, 2019 18:04:37 GMT -7
Hello Donna.
I'm currently taking Sherman in for rehab therapy. His sessions are one hour long and performed by licensed vets (DVM, CCRT, cVMA). So far those sessions have included laser and acupuncture, costing $125 each.
Fortunately I have Petplan insurance and it looks like they'll only cover therapy performed by a vet.
Hopefully that helps for comparison purposes.
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Post by Donna & Daisy Duke on Jun 9, 2019 14:17:58 GMT -7
It has been 2 weeks since Daisy surgery and she is not urinating on her own nor is she walking. She has had deep pain sensation and a tail wag for a week now. Am I expecting too much? Is this normal?
Also she licks her back legs and feet. Could that mean she feels them
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jun 9, 2019 19:12:16 GMT -7
Donna, I know it's so hard to wait. However, Daisy sounds like she's doing very well.
The first two weeks there's a lot of swelling from the surgery.
It could be months or even up to a year before you can see how Daisy's recovery will fully progress.
Occasional licking could be Daisy feeling some sensation returning.
However, keep an eye on it. There's a condition called neuropathy that can occur from damage to the spinal cord.
This can range from a pins and needles sensation to an intense burning feeling.
In the worst case scenario dogs have chewed off toes.
It can be treated with an e collar and medication.
Not trying to scare you, just hoping to help you know what to look for just in case.
Sending you healing thoughts and prayers.
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Mary & Mila
Helpful Member
FEMALE— DACHSHUND
Posts: 218
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Post by Mary & Mila on Jun 10, 2019 1:36:47 GMT -7
Hi Donna, Just to add to what Julie is saying there regarding the time frame, it is very early days for Daisy. A tail wag is a very good sign and there's no reason why she shouldn't regain the bladder/bowel control in the future. It could happen next week, or next month. Nerve regeneration. Regaining neurological function has no time limit for nerves to heal. Nerve repair is individual as each injury is different and each dog’s ability to heal is different. If deep pain perception (DPP) is present, even in paralyzed legs, there is a chance your dog may be able to walk again. For those dogs who have lost DPP, do know nerve regeneration can take place and that function may return. Once deep pain perception is regained, your dog has a chance at a walking recovery. Thousands of dogs on Dodgerslist have regained functions in as little as 2 weeks, others 11 months, and still others 3 years later. IVDD is a disease of patience to allow the body to heal on its own terms. Acupuncture and Laser Therapy stimulate the cell’s metabolism that leads to the body’s natural repair abilities and can be started at any time. Post op rehab www.dodgerslist.com/literature/rehab.htmWishing Daisy a continued recovery. Mary
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