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Post by kathleens on May 24, 2019 12:16:53 GMT -7
Hi, I was reading the most recent posts and I am afraid it sounds like Otto's condition has progressed and nursing care and medication are not going to be sufficient. I hate to be the one to suggest he may have a terminal condition such as a brain tumor or other serious lesion. However, despite the significant efforts to make him comfortable it may become impossible to do so. I would begin to think about his quality of life. No one can tell you what to do and it is a private decision of you, your family and your current circumstances to continue to care for Otto. I hope you can find some peace soon in regards to Otto and his care. God bless you.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on May 24, 2019 16:25:19 GMT -7
Respectfully, Kathleen, Otto has not been diagnosed with a brain tumor or other lesion and none of his vets have suggested that. His neurologist, who has examined him and reviewed his x-rays, feels he has either had a stroke or is suffering from cervical IVDD, both of which are treatable and from which he can recover. Loss of neuro function is consistent with a dog who has not had strict crate rest due to not being able to relax and rest in the crate and most likely has suffered a re-tear of the not-yet-healed disc. There are many things that can help a dog relax in the crate. Conservative care has been prescribed by the neurologist so hopefully when Danielle tries the recommended calming suggestions, Otto will calm and adjust to the crate. It's unfortunate that another 8 weeks of strict crate rest will need to be done but that's a temporary treatment, much like a cast for a broken bone. I do hope that Danielle will find the encouragement and strength she needs to give Otto the time to heal.
Danielle, please keep us updated on which of the calming tips you are trying and how they are helping calm Otto or whether your vet feels a mild sedative may need to be prescribed.
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Post by Danielle & Otto on May 24, 2019 22:04:24 GMT -7
I have to re read the neuros eval but she seems confident stroke v ivdd. He actually was about 90 percent back last week. Then he had a relapse. A few days ago. But hes doing ok tonight. Hes not as bad as a month ago although he relapsed. 2 vets have said ivdd actually. With a pug is it ok to rest outside crate sometimes? Sometimes he is good in there, but others gets upset. Pugs are naturally very inactive. Theyre not rodent chasers like doxies. Hes goes back to primary vet for eyes tomorrow. He has a topical treatment. I will write down Majorie's ideas to ask vet I sent her the neuros diagnosis today so I can go over neuro problem with her. I feel like I understand what I need to do for treatment thought. Restrict movement.
Per neuro - considers neoplasia [abnormal growth of tissue] because of his age, but unlikely to get better on its own. Since he was recovering, she did not think it was as likely as ivdd or stroke.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on May 25, 2019 5:13:39 GMT -7
Thanks for sharing the neuro's thoughts on neoplasia, Danielle. That makes a lot of sense since he did improve with strict rest. Any time out of the crate poses a risk of too much movement of the spine. Dogs so often do the unexpected. He might decide to get up and walk into another room, which would be too many steps. A doorbell might ring or a bird fly past a window that might make him get up to investigate. We like to think of a recovery suite as a cast for the spine. It's level and flat to provide good support of the spine while restricting too much movement. Maybe a playpen or ex-pen would work better for Otto. Some dogs like strollers for a bit of time out of the crate. The use of a stroller has some cautions and restrictions so do read this link if you'd like to try a stroller: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htmYou can also put caster wheels on a wire crate and wheel it from room to room so Otto can stay with you. Is there any way that the vet can give you the topical treatment for the eye to do at home so you can avoid the risk of transporting Otto to the vet for that?
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Post by Danielle & Otto on May 25, 2019 12:07:17 GMT -7
Im not sure gp does home visits. Dog did poke eye on crate. She confirmed recent trauma. For his ivdd or stroke, have to talk to neuro. Gp cant help with meds or treatment.
Argh
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 25, 2019 13:18:17 GMT -7
It will be good to be able to discuss the neuro's evaluation with your regular vet. A regular DVM will be more accessible and cost less than a specialist. Once your DVM has gone over the neuro evaluation she may be more confident in providing the meds for Otto.
You might want to give some consideration to a pack and play as a recovery suite for Otto, as Marjorie suggested. Dogs who have had problems in a crates ometimes adjust more easily to a pack and play. You may be able to get a used one inexpensively. Ex-pens also work well for some dogs. I used one for my Frankie during his disc episode. They have a more open feel than most crates.
Your vet may not do home visits, but she may be comfortable about being updated on the phone regarding Otto's eye
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Post by Danielle & Otto on May 25, 2019 14:21:48 GMT -7
I did send the vet the neuro eval and ask to go over with her but she said she go back to neuro for treatment. Ill look into a used pack n play. My dogs 25 pounds though. When i google, it kind of looks like my big boy will sink the floor... im sure he will still find some way to get into mischief with it. I think the vet needed to do stuff to his eye. Shes not a far drive. The neuros a bit of a drive though. Maybe 15 miles 30 min. Plus pricey and always busy no Saturdays or Sundays.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 25, 2019 14:38:20 GMT -7
25 lbs should be okay for a pack and play. If Otto has a problem staying calm in his recovery suite, regardless of type, consider asking the vet for a mild sedative or give the natural methods Marjorie mentioned a try. Conservative treatment requires minimal movement.
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Post by Danielle & Otto on Jul 7, 2019 12:05:38 GMT -7
Hello. I have a problem. My dog is getting smelly and his breath is smelly too. I used to brush his teeth before incident. Can I still do that during conservative treatment for neck? Im afraid it might move his neck around. We also discontinued using hills oral care kibble temporarily. Can we resume kibble as soon as 8 weeks are up? I am thinking a spray for smelly coat but not sure about teeth.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 7, 2019 12:22:25 GMT -7
Danielle, with graduation day around the corner on July 17, if he will allow some gentle tooth brushing or guaze on a finger with doggie tooth paste OR even some detal mouth rinse if he fights it brushing may help. Call your vet and see what he advises on a mouthrinse.
For his fur, might dampen a washcloth with some cooled decaf green tea. Will leave a pleasant earthy clean fragrance. Again only if his does not fight it.
YOu would gradually transition back to his normal kibble food over the course of several days when he has graduated.
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Post by Danielle & Otto on Jul 8, 2019 22:01:49 GMT -7
Hi.i think he relapsed again around june 29. He started falling and struggled to get up a few times. A week later, he still falls sometimes but can walk ok. He is much better than the first month April/May even with relapse. He has never gone back to how bad he was in mid April.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
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Post by Marjorie on Jul 9, 2019 4:47:13 GMT -7
Danielle, if in fact you believe Otto relapsed on June 29 and that his neuro function worsened on that day, then his 8 weeks of crate rest would have to start again as of June 29. A relapse is when the disc has torn more, once again causing pain and possible loss of neuro function. That usually occurs from too much movement. Is Otto still having trouble resting quietly in the crate? Is he still taking the Meloxicam or was that stopped at any time? Did you see any sign of pain on June 29? Did you let the vet know about this and if so, what did the vet say?
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Post by Danielle & Otto on Jul 9, 2019 12:31:25 GMT -7
Hello. Yes he has trouble staying in his pen. Sometimes good others hes crazy. He has been on meloxicam for years every day. I have been avoiding the vet a bit after 7 visits in 2 months. Its hard for me to see neuro too due to her hours.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 26.1 lbs 11 y.o. diagnosed IVDD 4/18 by DVM ER vet Meloxicam liquid since 2015 for hip dysplasia: 25lbs dose 1x/day long term 2nd opinion DVM 4/27 diagnosed progressive hip dysplasia 3rd opinion Neuro 5/6 diagnosed stroke or neck disc Disc relapse 5/22- new neuro dimishment Disc relalpse 6/29 - new neuro of falling, difficulty getting up Melatonin 1-3 mgs nighttime Pepcid AC 5mgs 1x/day]
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jul 10, 2019 5:05:16 GMT -7
Something needs to be done to help Otto rest in his crate. Otherwise, the damaged disc is just not going to heal and he may keep having relapses like the recent one on June 29th. Have you tried any of the calming tips that I gave you on May 24th? If none of the oral calmers help, then the vet needs to prescribe a mild sedative to help him relax in the crate.
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Mary & Mila
Helpful Member
FEMALE— DACHSHUND
Posts: 218
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Post by Mary & Mila on Jul 11, 2019 2:51:13 GMT -7
Hi Danielle, Just reading your recent post regarding Otto's dental hygiene. I'd like to add to Paula's reply with a product I use for my own dogs. You just add a tiny amount, about a teaspoon to the drinking water, it does help keep breath fresh and the dogs don't seem to notice it. I'm sure you can get it locally, it's available online too. www.beaphar.com/en-gb/product/beaphar-plaque-awayKind regards Mary
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Post by Danielle & Otto on Jul 12, 2019 18:50:19 GMT -7
Hello. I tried the blanket over the crib and Calming moments by naturvet at night which has more than melatonin [0.12mgs]. It has some of the ingridients you mentioned. Maybe he needs a bigger dose of calming moments, but his "k9 choice" melatonin [3.0mgs] works much better than calming moments
Blanket over crib doesnt help. So in the evening when im home and during the day when I work and hes babysat he is a calm little Angel boy.
Then at night from 10 30 to 1 30 he gets restless. Melatonin helps a bit, but keeping him happy in the crib at night even with melatonin is tough. I have a feeling I might get pushback if I suggest a sedative either from the neuro or if I try to see a primary that is part of her hospital chain.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jul 12, 2019 19:55:22 GMT -7
If other alternatives haven't worked, then I feel a sedative is perfectly reasonable.
Or have you checked with your vet about increasing the melatonin?
My dog had been taking melatonin to sleep and started having insomnia again.
Now she gets it 3x daily, per vet, and is sleeping well again.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 12, 2019 20:15:04 GMT -7
Danielle, compare amount mgs per ingredient in the two products. K-9 choice has 3.0 mgs of melatonin per tablet. Calming moments has 0.12mgs of melatonin. So that may help you and your vet decide which product to use.
If the K-9 still is not working for Otto at night, then do advocate with your vet for something stronger just at night. so you and Otto can get the necessary good nights of sleep.
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Post by Danielle & Otto on Jul 23, 2019 19:10:12 GMT -7
another disc relapse 7/23 He relapsed again today. Im going to go back to neuro if I can get time off work. Should I try steroids? I dont know what to do.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 23, 2019 19:22:58 GMT -7
Danielle, his disc healed on Aug 24. So he has not relapsed but had a new disc issue...maybe the same disc maybe another.
First and most important thing is to crate at once and then get vet help for a diagnosis and the right treatment. Has he seen a vet, what was the diagnosis, meds, etc. details? Please always give specific details about what you observe for pain and for neuro loss/diminishment as then we know how to best comment. Know when a steroid might be used and when it is typical to use a non-steroid NSAID drug as the anti-inflammatory.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jul 23, 2019 20:10:00 GMT -7
I'm so sorry that this is happening. A couple of years ago my Nala was in a similar situation.
We got through it and you and Otto will too.
Just take it one step at a time.
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Post by Danielle & Otto on Jul 23, 2019 22:22:35 GMT -7
My dog has never graduated. He was fine and then we walked at 6 and he was stumbling. He can barely walk. He is usually hyper at night and bouncing in his pen. Hyper for a pug. but all he wants to do right now is lay in his pen. Hes not even begging for his night pee. Not barking. Its weird.
I admit crate rest is hard. Family who I have watch him dont listen and let him out of the pen. They dont understand tough love. He is so hyper at night too. I have trouble keeping his water in there so it is outside and let him drink on a yoga mat outside it. He spills it always.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 24, 2019 7:51:53 GMT -7
Danielle, you are right was to be graduated on August 24th. I'm sorry to hear you family members have not yet gotten up to speed on Otto's disease so that it then becomes easy for them to provide the right healing environment for Otto. Do they connect the dots about the pain and suffering they have caused Otto by not following strict rest principals. Have they seen the animated video? It sounds as though it was not the lack of strong enough anti-inflammatory (he's on the lessor class of non-steroids like Meloxicam). But the cause of neuro diminishment of barely walking was due to too much movement. The problem is he is still on meloxicam. A steroid should not be given in close proximity to a NSAID as that greatly increases the potential for GI tract damage leading to bleeding ulcers. When a vet determines the loss of neuro function is an emergency, they would then Rx two different protectors at the same time to allow the dispensing of a 4-7 days washout. So both Pepcid AC and sucralfate would be Rx'd. reading on sucralfate: marvistavet.com/sucralfate.pmlWhich limbs are affected: front or back? Not walking due to pain, or loss of leg/paw functions? Let us know what the neuro vet says this morning and any changes to his med list.
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Post by Danielle & Otto on Jul 24, 2019 18:03:45 GMT -7
Hello,
Not walking in front and back. Neuro diminishment. Hes doing better today though. He did ok walking on his potty break but sort of has more of a limp than a few days ago. Its really hot too. That may account for his lethargy yesterday.
I decided not to go to neuro. I would like to but it is difficult with work. However I called the hospital down the street where he 1st saw er who said he had ivdd and the primaries there can treat him for it. I made an appt in 2 weeks(earliest with my schedule) but may try for walk in on Sat. I suppose I am looking for a sedative.
I am actually not sure if I should go to the primary, if it will be helpful. The answer might just be stricter rest. Going might do more harm than good.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 25, 2019 13:17:43 GMT -7
A regular vet who is IVDD knowledgeable should be able to treat Otto and I think a sedative may help keep Otto calm in his crate . Strict crate rest is critical and a mild sedative may help him rest peacefully in his crate. A number of dogs on Dodgerslist have used mild sedatives for calming. The sedatives we most often see prescribed for this are trazadone and acepromazine.
If the vet wants to try a steroid, which is a stronger class of medication, because of Otto's worsening neuro function, it can be safely done with the addition of sucralfate as Paula mentioned above.
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Post by Danielle & Otto on Jul 25, 2019 17:50:05 GMT -7
Romy and Frankie,
Ok thank you.
How did you do water in a pack n play? I have one for hom now. Much safer than the crate. However he will spill his water if I put it in there. Its really hot out. Im scared to leave him in there at night or unsupervised with no water.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 25, 2019 18:13:57 GMT -7
Danielle, try DIY water and food bowls attachment. You might need to to cut out a piece of cardboard and punch two holes as a backer for the tiewraps to provide more support on the mesh of the pack N Play???
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Post by Danielle & Otto on Aug 3, 2019 10:25:22 GMT -7
Primary vist today. 23.2 lbs. Vet said some neuro deficits loss but looks like hes doing much better. ✙Trazadone 25 mg every 12 to 24 hours for trial 14 days. Compared to three and a half months ago at the vets, he was so much better. Had traction on linolium and much more his old self. Not hiding under the chair. At least not the whole time.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 23.2 lbs 11 y.o. diagnosed IVDD 4/18 by DVM ER vet Meloxicam liquid since 2015 for hip dysplasia: 25lbs dose 1x/day long term 2nd opinion DVM 4/27 diagnosed progressive hip dysplasia 3rd opinion Neuro 5/6 diagnosed stroke or neck disc Disc relapse 5/22- new neuro dimishment Disc relalpse 6/29 - new neuro of falling, difficulty getting up Melatonin 1-3 mgs nighttime ✙Trazadone 25 mg 1-2/day Pepcid AC 5mgs 1x/day]
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 3, 2019 11:00:19 GMT -7
Danelle, thanks for letting us know about your local primary DVM visit today.
Good to hear Otto has neuro function enough to have traction to walk on tricky smooth surfaces.
Still he should be on strict crate rest and not allowed to walk on linoleum. Should be carried to and from the potty place and keep footsteps to the very minimium. The disc is still healing til graduation day of Aug 24.
Can you tell us more about the hiding under a chair...was that in the past or is he allowed out of his suite for such a dangerous thing as getting under furniture now? The danger of course is too much movement to the still healing disc.
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Post by Danielle & Otto on Aug 3, 2019 14:13:39 GMT -7
At the vets there is linoleum and a row of chairs. I remember 3.5 months ago, he just hid under a chair but earlier today he had traction on linoleum and was not hiding under the chair too much. He was on a leash and not able to step out that far away from me but he was able to walk and stand on the linoleum, which he couldnt before.
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