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Post by Rob & Oliver on Aug 5, 2017 13:52:15 GMT -7
Hi Abby. I'm an IVDD father to my 9 year old dachshund, Oliver, and am in midst of dealing with my baby's 3rd episode of this condition, the last being about 2 years ago. I won't make this long as I see how much you have on your plate right now just trying to get oriented to the basics of poor Waffles' condition. Even with my experience with IVDD, this was the worst episode I've had to deal with, and Marjorie, Paula and Romy as well as some of the other moderators will tell you that the last 3 weeks for me have been WAY overwhelming. All I can say is that dog's are very resilient creatures, and while your posts are palpable and powerful, full of the love you have for Waffles but also in terms of your fear about the situation and what will happen. All I can tell you is 3 weeks ago my Oliver was almost all the way down the Dodgerlist checkmarks for bad neuro signs inciuding unable to sit up or walk and loss of bladder control, but having engaged in absolutely strict, proper 24/7 crate rest, medications given at the proper times to ensure my baby had ZERO PAIN (pain should not be tolerated AT ALL), out only for pee or poop (actually at first more just to clean him up when he peed and pooped all over himself, wiping off wet poop from between his little paws, crying cause he didn't like that ether) and to eat and for water (I had to bring the bowl to his mouth for first few days), I am lucky and able to state that he is fully walking again, and the bad neuro signs are all reduced.
I also work from home, but live alone so it has been a heavy burden. But living alone, as I see it, is a real blessing, as it allows me to be able to check up on him, do the meds, and all the things unneeded to to help him get through the ACUTE STAGE, which it abounds like a Waffles is in. The peeing on his own after I started him off is a good sign but surely don't give up. He needs you now. You've come this far in getting this properly diagnosed, and found the best IVDD (and only I think) in the world whose moderators are so generous with their time and supportive. Like someone said above, as I too am very familiar with the initial exhaustion and fears that take over my, it's important, once you've done all u can for Waffles to have a good meal, take a relaxing bath or shower, put on bad television and take a rest (and give yourself a break), and take care of u. You won't be able to help him if you fall away. I can relate to the overwhelming feelings your experiencing. Sorry, I promised short and u got a Novella. Best of luck to you and Waffles. Me and Oliver will send prayers and keep posting. It helps me to stay in regular contact, going over every nook and cranny until Oliver became stable.
Robert
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 5, 2017 19:53:52 GMT -7
Hi Paula. The shots were hydromirphone-analgesic Dexamethasone SO antiinflammatory We are giving pepcid ac 10 mg 1xday She really isn't in pain. Nothing from the list. We are giving the pain meds every 12 hours instead of 8.
[41 lbs Dex shot on 8/1 Prednisone as of 8/2: 20 mg 2x/day for 5 days then test-for-pain Prednisone taper Gabapentin 200 mg 2x/day Tramadol 50mgs 2x/day Pepcid AC 10mgs 1x/day]
If she seems in pain we will do more often. I think what I thought was pain Thursday when she was barking was because her bladder was full. Although we have to take her out to pee, she has been pooping. Actually moved herself off her bed, still in the pen, to poop. When I take her out to pee, i set her down on the grass to take some air. No crate is needed at this point since she isn't moving and I figure lying on the grass is a change of scenery. She can reach the water dish on. the floor. She changes her position on her own. Sits up. Lies down to the front. Can lie own on either side and even curled up in a partial ball. Until tonight she has been moving around in the expen by sidling on her butt. I swear i saw her hopping on her back legs just before. I will see if she does it tomorrow. I feel better today, With sons and husband home I ran some errands, took my college bound son shopping for stuff. Waffles had 4 non canine friend stop by to see her! She was so excited! It was sad to see her not be able to greet them. I had to hold her back from trying to move too much. I'm leaning toward thinking this is an FCEM and not a slipped disc but the treatment is the same so I guess it doesn't matter I've been working my way though the site info and will prob have questions tomorrow.
Robert, wow. I can't believe you have been through this 3 times. Poor things! I'm only finishing day 4 episode 1! It feels similar to when we first got Waffles. I had never had a dog. I was overwhelmed and not sure how I could get through another day trying to work and get a routine for us. I'm trying to think in chunks of time. First 5 days of steroids. Next 5 days of tapering. And so on. Thanks for posting. It's nice to know I'm not alone.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Aug 6, 2017 3:10:59 GMT -7
Hi Abby. You are definitely not alone. What I've done this time is, after having Oliver sorted out -- until then I couldn't think of anything else -- but I then started reading some of the other cases, the other owners threads under the Conservative section of Dodgerslist, both to see how hard it is for other own reasons as well, so I know Me and Oliver are not alone, and for tips in how I'm dealing with the multitude of issues, which vary some from thread to thread but are mostly the same issues. I would suggest that when you have some free time.
As for bringing people over which excite him, my own preference on this, and I believe the Moderwtors would agree, is that I did not allow anyone to come into our home environment, especially someone oliver knows and loves as we don't want him to get excited and want to try to move around a lot. That in itself could re activate his injury and all ur painful 5. Days start again, or it could be even worse, is always what I say to myself. The 24/7 strict crate rest is recommended as it's the only thing that's truly worked for so many cases. Better to bite he bulletin and throw down some tough love and give Waffles the time it takes to begin healing.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 6, 2017 7:47:26 GMT -7
Abby, For a 41 lbs dog Pepcid AC should use the formula below to give GI tract protection. Rounded to 20mgs of Pepcid AC every 12 hours. Rob is correct in mentioning no kids, dogs or other visitors that will require you holding Waffles from moving. Best is to not introduce that much excitement in an effort to protect the healing disc. Any time out of the suite is also a potential danger to the healing disc. All dogs will do the unexpected in a blink of an eye. When outdoors especially, to make sure you have control over her with a sling, harness and leash Just the action of attempting to dart at a squirrel, a sound could spell disaster for the disc. So if Waffles is to be outdoors, for some fresh air, do it in a crate/ex-pen would be the safer option Mia's crate is kept in the midst of family activity even gardening!
Monday, 8/6, will be the start of the test-for-pain Prednisone taper. Your job is to assess for pain and alert the vet if you see it surfacing. Vets will either choose backing off or the stop of pain-masking pain meds (gabapentin and tramadol) with the start of the pred taper. Which does your vet want? If there would still be existing spinal cord inflammation evidenced by signs of pain on the taper, then getting another course of pred back up at the anti-inflammatory level is best done as quickly as possible. Taper days do not work on swelling. No one knows how long it will take to resolved all swelling--- somewhere of 7-30 days. So we've got our fingers crossed that a 5-day pred course will do the trick. The test for pain taper will let you and your vet know if another course of pred is needed. RULE of THUMB Pain= another course of anti-inflammatory + all pain meds back on board. No Pain= finish the pred taper... finish out the 8 weeks of crate rest for the disc to heal. The full details on how Prednisone, an anti-inflammatory works with a disc episode. Good reading to be able to ask the right questions and discuss treatment: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmVery nice to hear you found time for yourself and college bound son to get out. And we do look forward to your observations on leg movements exclusive of potty time. Maybe seeing her attempt to scratch, using a leg to reposition in the suite, back leg moving when dreaming.
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 6, 2017 10:49:41 GMT -7
Paula, interesting points. I will call the vet to ask about -increasing pepcid ac, tho he is the one who gave me the dosage I am using -the tapering of steroid and pain meds -I hear what you are saying about visitors and will think on it. Her reaction was no different from when she hears a car go by or the mailman come. It's a balancing act strict protocol v her spirits -when we are outside she is in the sling and right next to me. Will also think on moving the crate out, and logistics. -what do you think of the vets comment of disc v FCEM?
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Aug 6, 2017 11:02:32 GMT -7
Abby -- The clinical symptoms for a stroke are quite different than those of an IVDD diagnosis, even if there is some overlap. General DVMs, in my experience, range from having solid knowledge of IVDD to having never heard of it. I think having a proper diagnosis is important. If you haven't consulted a real veterinary neurologist, it would be a good idea if you do to get a real neuro evaluation. Treatments for a stroke are not the same as for IVVDD, even if some is overlap.
I will also add, as I totally understand your feelings about "strict protocol versus her spirits," as I've wrestled with my projections of how Oliver might be feeling all 'cooped up' in his crate, I have to say that dogs truly do not perceive he world as we do. Generally speaking he's fine in the crate, although it took both Oliver and me a good 2 weeks of me requiring the strict protocol, for us both to be more used to it. I would suggest you embrace the protocols, which are merely this websites great and long experience with what works and what does not, and NOT embrace your own feelings about how your dog "feels". Believe me, Waffles isn't obsessing about what's happening to him. Dogs live in the moment. If you embrace the protocols, so will Waffles and your chances of a favorable and quicker outcome will improve. That's just my two cents.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 6, 2017 11:53:25 GMT -7
Abby, I imagine you can see something of our vantage point at a computer of not being able to read between lines. Owner tells us dog is lyng on grass outdoors not in a crate, for the safety of a dog we need to explain the dangers. With the details you explained of having full controll with leash & harness, that paints a different picture. Thanks for the extra info! As you may have noticed we are a group who LOVE the detail! LOL.
Getting a diagnosis of FCE or IVDD can be a challenge for many reasons. FCE is more of a large dog event, although it could happen to a small dog. Disc disease of prematurely aging disease starting at one year old with the first episode happening at 4-7 years old is typcial for the short legged, dwarf legged breeds (dachshunds, terriers, bassette, shih tzu, miniature poodles and pinchers, etc). Then there is a disc episode as the normal aging process for any dog and often what is seen for a large breed dog. Waffles is an unknown mixed breed, right, maybe some terrier, maybe not.
There is no way to confirm FCE except with an autopsy. A disc problem can only be proved with $1500+ advanced imaging such as CT or MRI which require anesthesia. A disc problem can be suspicioned by xray where a narrowing between vertebrae could indicate a current or a past bulging out of shape disc or a disc that had escaped disc material. Xrays most often are used to rule out other disease when a vet has doubts of a disc episode. Xrays show only hard tissue like bone, but not soft tissue of spinal cord and discs that an MRI or CT can show.
- Fibro-cartilaginous embolism (FCE) is similar to a “stroke” in the brain but happens in the spinal cord. - Neurologic knuckling and the absence of a tender spot, suggests FCE. - FCE is not generally painful where as IVDD is. Although we have had quite a few doxie that had little pain with the disc episode. (Bagley, Neurology, ACVIM: "FCE is normally not progressive and is not painful; however, a small percentage of animal can have spinal pain Often the clinical signs are asymmetric. This disease is rare in chondrodystrophoid dogs.") -FCE shows no disc compression on an MRI, IVDD shows disc compression. -FCE the first 24 hrs the maximum damage is done, where as IVDD damage could be a progressive thing over days especially with lack of strict rest.
So in summary since you are not likely to spend $1500+ money for an MRI to confirm disc disease and put the disc at risk under anesthesia just to know , the prudent course is to assume a disc is involved and continue with conservative treatment of STRICT crate rest til the suspicioned disc has healed by the end of 8 weeks.
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 6, 2017 13:03:10 GMT -7
How do I attach a picture so I can show you Waffles?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 6, 2017 13:18:07 GMT -7
On a mobile device, the easier way is to send your photo to this email address:
Email (owner's name, your email addy, dog's name + photo caption) to : photogallery@dodgerslist.com
If you are on a laptop or desktop, then instead of writing in the "quick Reply" box at the bottom of the page, choose the "Reply" button to the RIGHT of that quick reply area. You will then see there are a lot of enhancements you can make to a post including the button "add an image to post"--- easy as that!
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 6, 2017 16:00:36 GMT -7
Paula, You are right it us hard to get the nuances when reading posts. I wasn't having attitude by numbering my comments, I just think better that way! I feel that a little fresh air and sunshine is healing to both of us! I emailed a pic of Waffles. She is a mid sized dog. Her legs are a little shorter compared to her length but not as much as a doxie.
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 6, 2017 16:12:03 GMT -7
I went to the pc...
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Post by Julie & Perry on Aug 6, 2017 18:43:20 GMT -7
She sure is cute!
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 7, 2017 3:53:03 GMT -7
I need suggestions on where best to leave Waffles if we all need to go out and she is home alone. Here are my options: -expen - Not sure if this is stable enough for her if we aren't there to watch but there is no top and we can open it up so we can sling her out more easily -Portable Soft sided crate. This is nice because it also has an open top but I'm not sure if it is stable enough -traditional crate - The issue here is that it is just tall enough for her to stand in. It does not have an open top so there is concern that we may hurt her or our backs getting her in and out. She is not a light weight doxie! We don't quite have a bladder expressing schedule so we've been taking her out to try more than she needs so that's a lot of contorting for all of us! I suppose the best thing would be to buy a new crate with an open top but I'm trying to not keep spending money.1) Thoughts on which to leave her in if I need to leave her alone in the house? 2) We've just been using her regular dog bed, is there a down side to that? She's able to move around and change positions so I don't have to worry about bed sores, right?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 7, 2017 5:07:52 GMT -7
Hi, Abby. A wire crate can be converted to open at the top. The top of the crate could then be closed to be sure she doesn't try to jump out of it and only opened when she's taken out. Here's how: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies/cratetopconvert.pdf
Caster wheels can also be added to a wire crate so you can wheel Abby from room to room so she can be with you.
An ex-pen can be used unless you feel she can get out of it. Be sure to fill in any extra space with rolled up blankets or towels. Any recovery suite used should only be large enough for Abby to stand up, turn around and lie down with her legs extended comfortably.
The dog bed in the photo looks like she may have to step up to get into it unless you're placing her into it. What might be a better alternative:
2 inch 4 lb density memory foam mattress to relieve pressure points. NOTE: protect the foam mattress by inserting in a large trash bag and duct taping closed. Tuck in/cover with fleece bottom sheet. www.foambymail.com Check Walmart, etc. for human memory foam bed topper can be cut down and stacked for several recovery suite locations.
•Egg crate foam is another alternative: www.foambymail.com/rectangle-eggcrate-foam-pet-beds.html
If she moves around and changes position, then you wouldn't need to be concerned about pressure points.
More info on how to set up recovery suite: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cratesupplies.htm
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 7, 2017 5:34:07 GMT -7
Tx Marjorie. FYI. Waffles is the dog, Abby is the human, I totally don't fit in the crate. Bwahaha! I sent the instructions to my husbsnd. We place her in the bed so I think the lip is ok and she does reposition herself. Let's talk poop. I guess we have a little exposed floor in the expen. We have her water dish on the floor in the expen. She sidles off the bed to poop. How is that different from her sidling around in the bed? If there are just rolled towels do they just poop in the bed? I think we had some success with bladder control. She was in the sling and I was trying to express and no luck. She then moved about a foot or so and sniffed then squatted and peed. So its ok if she moves a little bit outside, within a few feet, to find a place to pee, right? We still need to support her in the sling. I guess I'm having stress splitting hairs for strict crating for the pee and poop. I think I need to ease up on myself and realize I am doing the best I can and prob following the rules 95% of the time and hope for the best. I'm only human. If I were canine I'd be perfect...
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 7, 2017 10:48:50 GMT -7
Abby, great news on observing bladder control with the sniff and pee!! That IS big!! I would continue to do a quick little express check after she sniffs and pee til you are confident she is fully voiding her bladder each time. For best set up when you leave the house would be a top to the suite, IF, if there is even the least chance that Waffles can jump against the sides, can jump out of the suite. The soft side carrier may work when you need to leave the house if it is large enough to easily turn around stretch out the legs and move up to stand on all four legs. I would use sturdy furniture and a wall to wedge the carrier so that is willl be very sturdy, not to be tipped over, etc. The dog bed with sides and mattress is too small. She is not able to stretch out her legs fully when lying down for the rest of the 8 weeks needed to heal the disc. Fabric stores have memory foam and egg crate foam you can buy by the yard. Check upholstery shops, they may have a large enough scrap and not too expensive??? When lying about for many weeks, it is just a more comfortable idea of using foam if you can do that to avoid pressure points that can be uncomfortable. An option for your ex pen when you have to leave the house. (See, I like lists too!) ~~ If you happen to have an extra panel that is being accordianed to fit the size of the mattress, you can likely separate it, unhook it. That wire panel(s) then can be attached with cheap tie wraps as a top to the ex-pen. ~~ another option from the hardware store you can by a sheet of clear acrylic to avoid closed in feeling. Drill a holes where needed in order to secure with tie wraps as a top. tie wraps are plastic so you cut with a scissors and cheap so you can use more until you find/purchase a larger wire crate.
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 7, 2017 11:46:29 GMT -7
Hi Paula.
I have to let this all percolate in the back of my head for a bit. For now I will stick with the bed but measure both crates to see if I find foam/egg crate. We tried some egg crate in a plastic bag but she kept sliding when she was trying to sit up. Maybe we will just tape the pee pad to the egg crate.
Does regaining bladder control correlate with being able to walk again or is it unrelated? Grasping at straws for hope...
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 7, 2017 12:01:27 GMT -7
Nerves heal typically but not always in the reverse order of the damage to the spinal cord: 1. √ Deep Pain Sensation (Only correctly identified by a specialist.) 2. 0 Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3. √ Bladder and bowel control verified today!!! with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. Leg Movement, and then ability to move up into a stand position, and then wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htm
The trick with setting up the mattress is layering in this order:MATTRESS SETUP------ Fleece "bottom sheet" tucked in all around tightly and a bit under the mattress keeps pee pad from shifting.+++ Pee pad on top of mattress (enclosed in bag)~~~~ Mattress enclosed in trash bag to protect and avoid having to clean
At suite freshening time, dispose of used pee pad, put the bottom sheet in the washer. Having extra fleece bottom sheets means you have them near by and can quickly remake bedding. Fleece is no sew, no worries about raveling just cut one of those cheap about $10 (100% synthetic throws found at target, a large grocery store down to sizes you need. Fleece (no cotton, 100% polyester) is available at almost every fabric store like JoAnns. Fleece washes and dries very quickly. On a warm summer day I even dry mine outside in the sunshine so it smells wonderfully outdoorish for my dog.
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 7, 2017 12:35:35 GMT -7
This cracks me up. The parallels between Waffles mattress prep and that for my college bound son! I'm hung up on the plastic bag on the mattress cuz she slips. Needs to simmer in my head. Yes I saw the list of loss of function and reverse for recovery. Her tail isn't wagging yet. Sigh. Must stop checking every 15 minutes! Thanks so much all!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 7, 2017 15:20:29 GMT -7
The list is what is classic, typical. Some dogs are not typical. For example leg function comes back before bladder, etc.
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 7, 2017 15:24:37 GMT -7
OMG. She scratched her ear with her back leg. You know, the one she couldn't move yesterday! And she stood up all by herself! I placed her in the doorway and she saw the mailman and barked and barked. Then stood up. 😊
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Post by Julie & Perry on Aug 7, 2017 20:09:09 GMT -7
Woohoo!!! That's terrific! Keep up the good work Abby. There is life and hope of healing with IVDD.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Aug 8, 2017 5:17:37 GMT -7
Really great news!!!
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 8, 2017 5:42:30 GMT -7
So wonderful to hear this, Abby. Beautiful signs of nerve healing. Keep up the good work!
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 8, 2017 14:05:40 GMT -7
I don't go back to the vet for two weeks which is about when the steroid taper will be done. I can't afford laser, accupuncture, water treadmill, professional PT etc. Should I wait to start some sort of PT at home until she is completely off the steroids?
Also, I can tell already the crating is going to be stressful for me. Since she is feeling better she is barking and panting when we leave the room or leave the house. I will stick to the crating but it rips my heart into little pieces. She also barks/pants if she needs to pee so I'm dragging her out like way more than I need to just to make sure it isn't to pee.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Aug 8, 2017 14:30:42 GMT -7
Dogs on conservative treatment crate rest who are not paralyzed are able to move around a bit in the crate and at potty time to keep their joints and muscles toned. No additional therapy is necessary. When Waffles is off all meds and in no pain, then some gentle exercises can be started. These are the exercises marked in pink under Conservative Treatmetn Recommendations on this page: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmHave you looked into the DAP pheromone diffuser and oral calmer that Paula mentioned? A natural method like that may be enough to help keep her calm. Here is a link to some relaxing music you could try to see if it helps her:
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 8, 2017 16:42:33 GMT -7
Thanks for the link to the exercises. I will look into the calmers. I'm thinking that once I'm gone she would calm down eventually if I left her alone in the house.
She just pitched a huge fit cuz she couldn't be with us at dinner. She usu crawls under the table. We aren't prepared with the crate on wheels yet, plus she's 2' tall and 3' long and the crate we have is only 20" tall so I guess I need to get another one.
She was panting and trembling so badly we finally slung her into the kitchen to be with us. I know against the rules but she was standing up I thought she might hurt herself. Each stage brings new challenges I just have to find a way not to feel trapped and not able to leave her alone in the house. She'd prob calm down I just have a hard time with the guilt.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Aug 8, 2017 19:53:22 GMT -7
If the calmers don't help you may need to try a sedative. I've had to give one to my dog while on crate rest to keep her calm. Acepromazine and Trazadone are commonly used.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 9, 2017 8:45:12 GMT -7
Abby, if you are taking her out to potty every 3-4 hours while on pred, then you would know barking is for another reason such as wanting attention. If one of your kids broke an arm and complained wanting to take the cast off would you feel guilt and do it? Waffles is your kid who has a broken disc. The recovery suite is acting like a cast to limit movement of the back, allowing the disc to heal. I think you would endure deep guilt if you cheat on crate rest and Waffles re-injures the early healing disc, because you know the suite is a critical part part of disc healing. There's not just guilt with a re-injured disc. Waffles will feel alot of pain, you will have more vet bills, crate rest will start all over again at step one in the count of 8 weeks. IDEASs to consider: -- To keep dog from jumping in crate. Drape blanket to head height of standing dog, so he can't see if he jumps or stands on hind legs. The draped blanket should quickly extinguish that kind of behavior The crate casters are fairly inexpensive and sooooo helpful in keeping Waffles near family activities. Your local pet shop should have or you can order on line. Re-imagine an old/gadget (iOS or Android) as a free Wi-Fi Pet monitoring camera! www.presencepro.com OR www.cam2pet.com/en/
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Post by Abby & Waffles on Aug 9, 2017 11:53:47 GMT -7
I'm not planning on shirking on the crating but Just because I am doing the right thing doesn't mean I can't feel bad about it. Obviously a me problen not a canine one!
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