PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 26, 2017 7:34:56 GMT -7
Rob, no one knows how long it will take Rimadyl to resolve all painful swelling. So a vet simply must guess when to try a test-for-pain stop of it. Rimadyl started on 7/21 and we never learned for how many days the vet prescribed it for. Often the Rx will be for a 5-7 day course and sometimes a 14-day course to see if inflammation is gone or not. For a true, accurate and fast assessment, pain masking pain med gabapentin would also be stopped. It has now been 6 days on Rimadyl. I would discuss giving it a stop and assess for pain. Especially if looking at the poop and it is not going in the direction of firming up...still runny diarrhea.
Thank you for letting us know all the meds he is on as that helps us to more fully understand the situation. Do know that both tramadol and sucralfate can cause constipation. So that may be the reason, your vet did not immediately prescribe a 2nd stomach protector (sucralfate) with the diarrhea?
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 26, 2017 14:08:04 GMT -7
Colitis. Will detail when I get home. No energy. Been up for 48 hours. Just got home from vet, will write up full report tomorrow. One question and I need support from the fabulous moderators, I am now to ignore his barks and whimpering while in cage, correct??? Listening and projecting my feelings into his whines last night has wiped me raw. Visit found him fine and doing full pain stop, no more pain meds. Will detail all tomorrow but please tell me to relax and ignore the pleases from my sad eyed dachshund, master of the manipulative universe? They did prescribe Trazadone to help with the anxiety [Moderator's note: please do not modify 15 lbs Rimadyl as of 7/21: 12.5 mgs 2x/day for ? days, STOPPED Gabapentin 50mg/mL: 50mgs 2 or 3x/day STOPPED Pepcid AC (famotidine) 20 mg tab: 6.6mgs 2x/day STOPPED Metronidazole 62.5 mgs 2x/day For perianeal hernias: Lactulose & Metamucil daily ✚Trazadone ]
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 26, 2017 14:20:47 GMT -7
Try to get some rest. You won't be able to help Oliver if you become sick yourself. If his barks and whimpering are to get attention, you can ignore them. We have some tips for keeping dogs calm in the crate here. You can take a look and see if you find anything helpful when you get a chance. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htm
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 26, 2017 14:59:38 GMT -7
Romy, agreed!! That was part of my conversation with the vets, discerning the difference between trying to get attention and a real problem, pain etc. I feel good about it now and am going to detach slightly as I really absorbed and took on his energy and it did not help either of us I'm sure. Will write up full update tomorrow. Thanks for all of ur support. Ran into dr L this afternoon at blue pearl. Tomorrow a house call vet is coming to do laser and acupuncture
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 28, 2017 6:02:02 GMT -7
Okay, so here's the full update on Oliver. Since my visit to Blue Pearl on Wednesday, Oliver has improved in regard to his butt area. It's healed significantly. He has yet to do a poop yet, but they cleaned him out when they checked him to make him empty there so I think he has another day or so to poop. He has been doing a full pee, on his wee wee pads IN HIS CRATE, which on top of the fleece fabric -- I can see the difference between fleece and regular absorbing cotton towels so that was a good tip. Still waiting on foam dog mattress which should be in a day or so but he's otherwise comfortable ISH in his crate. I've stopped worrying so compulsively about him being crated, although he clearly expresses his feelings still every few hours with a bark or grunt or whine. I do check him AFTER he's been quiet for a bit, to make sure there's nothing else going on, like pain or if he peed himself. The tips on how to trim him to be calmer in the crate, rather than him train me to RUN to hm overtime I hear movement was helpful, and helped me with my own high anxiety over the situation. Im developing a nice resignation to the 8 week crate rest. As for his neurology, he can walk, slightly wobbly, his right foot primarily now, the other looks close to a normal walk (And by walk I mean a few steps), and his gait, when watching him from behind, I do believe has also improved to where it looks close to normal. I guess he really does have the nerve pinching still as he's definitely not at a fully normal walk. My DVM who does house calls for laser therapy was here yesterday and gave Oliver a treatment. We discussed slight leg movement. blood circulation etc to avoid muscle atrophy and to improve the condition. My neurologist also says and demonstrated to me the VERY LIGHT physical therapy movement, slightly rubbing the muscle, etc. I am aware DL has a "No PT during conservative treatment" as its recommendation but I agree with my vets on this one, understanding that it is SUPER LIGHT and more for just tiny movement and blood circulation, not to try to stretch him out, which then could active the IVDD. He is eating his food and drinking water when I literally hand feed him and bring the water bowl to his lips. He is a true dachshund Prima Donna, spoiled to the bone. But that's okay. I love him so. So, having stoped the Rimadyl, he has completely stopped the poop leakage from his butt. OH, almost forgot the highlight of my Wednesday panic visit to Blue Pearl. They diagnosed him with Colitis. And when I googled it, he has the symptoms of it right down the line. He remains on Metronidazole (250MG tabs, 1/2 tab 2x/dy) and his whole rear are has dried up and is healing nicely. Because of his Perinneal surgery and chronic issues with his butt and pooping, this was a super concern but getting this diagnoses and it healing up is a great relief. I have stopped the lactalose but the doc wants him to stay on the Metamucil "or other fibers". I also use Dr. Harvey's freeze dehydrated veggies, which, with hot water, hydrate to real veggies which is good for his fiber intake and for his digestion. As for pain, he's been off the Rimaduyl and Gabapentin since Wednesday and I don't see pain indications at all. But to address his crate anxiety, he is on Trazadone (50MG tabs, 1/4 tab 3x/dy). [Moderator's note: please do not modify 15 lbs Rimadyl as of 7/21: 12.5 mgs 2x/day for ? days, STOPPED Metronidazole 125mgs 2x/day For perianeal hernias: Lactulose & Metamucil daily Trazadone 50MG tabs, 12.5mgs 3x/day ]He has barked a few times from the living room while typing this. As for the crate rest in general, I'm literally letting him out for a few minutes while I monitor eating or to just sit with him for a bit and rub and love him. I tell him it I just temporary and that he will be back to his old self in short order. Am trying to ignore him until he stops barking or whining and then after a bit, I go check on him to see if he has any actual issues like having peed or pooped in his crate or any pain etc. So, Im keeping him crated probably 23 hours and 45 minutes of every day, is that about right? Giving him these two meds is not the problem that th4 liquid gabapentin was (so bitter) or the tramadol. I buy fresh plan sliced chicken and put the pills within a small piece. Easy....for once. Oh, as for the potty area I set up with wee wee pads and using my X-Pen and the end of the dog leash to keep closed, it is useless. He won't go in [potty area I set up] there he just lies down. That's about the story for now. Day 8 of strict crate rest. All comments will be appreciated. Thanks. rob Question: what is the objection if I let him sit next to me on my bed once in a while? It really calms him as he seems to appreciate it more than before. As long as I'm positive he won't jump, is there an issue with this for DL?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 28, 2017 7:55:36 GMT -7
Rob, the entire reason for 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out to potty is that dogs most often do the unexpected in a blink of an eye. The recovery suite is really the only safe place for that healing disc. ~~~ Couch cushions, your bed's mattress all give with a human body. This may cause Oliver to have to unexpectedly have to shift his body as things slope. The recovery suite on the other hand is always horizontal, never sloping, always supportive of keeping the back aligned. ~~ I can't count the number of owners who knew their dog would NEVER, EVER fill in the blank here. But the dog did! Paralyzed-legged dogs have jumped off a couch, gone down a flight of stairs, etc. Owner guilt is immense. In a blink of an eye dogs will dart at the sound of a TV doorbell, something floating past the window. Protecting them is being one step ahead of them to protect that still healing disc. ~~ At potty time, at pilling time, which is might be every 3-6 hours, is your time to give those hugs, lots of sweet talk. Not all gifts are easy to give. Your gift to Oliver is limited movement of the back so he does not have another relapse to a disc still in early development of scar tissue. NEURO sign Stlll some wobbly walking is due to nerve damage which will very likely self heal with time. The inflammation and bulging disc may now have reduced enough so that the spinal cord is not longer being "pinched", is no longer enduring pressure. POTTY PLACE Do you have a hand sprayer screwed on acidic white vinegar bottle to rid the alkaline urine odor that may remain on parts of the crate? Some dogs just will not pee in the house. So why does he choose to pee in his crate where he sleeps instead of the option to do it in your potty place? Do you put him in the potty place every 3-4 hours? Give him a couple of mins to potty. If he does nothing, carry him back to the crate. Give him a try in another hour. ROM and MASSAGE Once a dog is off of all meds and no signs of pain, then for a dog who is paralyzed, some very, very light least aggressive range of motion and massage IS the thing to do. Most dogs who can walk like Oliver, do not like having range of motion done. They may like the massage to the back legs though. There is a video and outline of very light PT for the conservative dog. It is the section in pink on this page www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm The floor is always the safer place, as it does not slope, Oliver can't jump. Oliver is progressing nicely (butt healed, nerve repair to bring back walking). Sounds like you have implemented good ideas to care for him more easily and to give your self some stress relief! We've got our fingers crossed for good disc healing to take place and a happy graduation day on Sep 14th!
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 28, 2017 8:28:19 GMT -7
Hey Paula. Yeah yeah, as to the bed thing. I thought about it further and can see that my bed, Which is rather plush -- forget about jumping off, which is something he wouldn't do -- but either way -- the bed itself I think is too soft and I think there's too much opportunity for him to move his body in the wrong way, even slightly could re-activate the IVDD, so I'm with you. Tough love, right?!
The Trazapane is helping. Is there any thoughts on DL concerning placing a time for discontinuing as I don't see any issue in providing this for a couple of weeks to help his anxiety. And me not jumping up over to him is helping too.
He remaining issue now will be the potty stuff and when he starts to havingnto poop. So you say I should take him to. -pen potty area every 3-4 hours? Should I give him like 5 min? 10 min? What? He basically just stares at me, demanding a jail break. When you dealt with ur own dog's IVDD, did he sleep through the night? Did you check on him in the middle of the night? I feel that when I see him sleeping, I don't want to wake him as that's the best activity he can do for the next 7 weeks. Right?
Thabks Paula!! U rock!!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 28, 2017 9:02:04 GMT -7
Rob, sometimes Trazadone is given prior to a known anxiety event like the start up of 4th July fireworks. Experiment if he only needs it during the day only needs 1x or 2x/day. You will just have to try out what works best for Oliver. Maybe over the course of a week, you may find he does not need any trazadone as he comes to accept his new normal routine. Dogs are creatures of routine, new ones stress them. And you might find transitioning from trazadon to calmers end up doing the trick, maybe some music too. Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=13043 --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/ Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php MUSIC Relaxation Music for Dogs! Here's the playlist for 70+ hrs Calming rain sounds At potty time carry him to your potty place. Set him down. He has 2 minutes to take care of business. If he does nothing, then pick him up and back to his crate. Try again in an hour. It is all trial and error to figure out when he has to pee, that you get him to the pee pad potty place in time so he will do it there not in the crate. Maybe start a list to document times you feed, times he drinks water. Time he poops, time he is having "accidents" in his crate. You should see a pattern that will help you get him into the potty place before he does it in his crate. When my dogs with bladder control were off all meds, then the potty times for them were to carry them to the potty place every 4-6 hours. If I noticed they had just taken a big drink of water, then I'd give them a pee break a little early than the 4 hour mark. At night the last drink was allowed about 8 pm. Last potty break at 10 pm. Beds stayed dry overnight, til we got up for 6am or 7am potty break. Every dog can be different than another in how fast the body metabolizes and how fast urine is processed by the kidneys so you just have to observe and figure out what it is for Oliver.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 28, 2017 9:50:02 GMT -7
Great. I happen to have a nice essential oil water diffuser. I have lavender and other lovely, calming and grounding scents. I think I will break that out.
Oh, question, what is the typical time for laser treatment. The DVM did it for about 6 seconds per acupressure point and the whole thing less than 10 minutes..for $235. I felt that the time was too short but wanted opinions???
In sum, things are stabilizing as we're starting to get a routine. It has been chaos but I'm getting my arms around it...slowly.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jul 28, 2017 11:54:20 GMT -7
I know that's a home visit for laser but wow, seems expensive to me. My dog went to a vet's office that was 10 minutes away and got 9 visits plus exam for $300.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 28, 2017 12:23:31 GMT -7
Rob, lavendar can be a cause of siezures in a dog who has this issue. If you've used lavendar before with Olver and no problems then it may help him relax....and you you! LOL
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 28, 2017 13:23:55 GMT -7
Haven't used it but now won't. All's finally quiet on the western front. What a week!! 9 days actually. He's adjusting, reluctantly, to his crate. In fact, he's now jumping back into it after eating or being out. But will not do anything in the potty area. I believe I have some crate poops in my future....And pees....
I guess that's a small price to pay, right?@!
How long is each visit for the treatment?
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 28, 2017 14:02:08 GMT -7
For Frankie each individual laser treatment was not more than 10 minutes. But I went to the nearby vet and, like Julie, paid much less.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 28, 2017 14:43:18 GMT -7
roger that, Romy. Thanks....
It looks like all is settling down, he's down to minimal meds, we're both getting used to his crate rest. The only issue is potty now, and he simply will not do any business in the little area Ive set up.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 28, 2017 14:46:42 GMT -7
Can you carry him outside? There are dogs that have been taught not to go in the house that will try hard not to. Could he be one of these?
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 28, 2017 15:26:18 GMT -7
He actually used to poop on his wee wee pads pretty regularly in the WEE hours, bet 1-5am so now he can't do that. The only reason I haven't tried to let him walk a few steps outside is because he's in the early stage of his recovery, but he can walk now, since Monday, so I may try it over the weekend and see if he wants to do anything outdoors. Otherwise, he's gonna be making a messy cage through this crate rest.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 28, 2017 15:30:26 GMT -7
He can definitely go outside. The only thing is to keep him to just a very few steps. Maybe he will like that better.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 28, 2017 15:34:28 GMT -7
My poor little boy. Just went in to say helllo and his wee wee pad had a full amount of pee. So the good news is he has bladder control and can pee away. The bad news is he can't/won't do it in the potty area. I just cleaned him all up. That tip on fleece throws versus towels is awesome. The fleece still gets a bit wet but doesn't absorb it and just sit there like the regular cotton towels.
Roger that, Romy. Will try this weekend, but boy, what an insane 10 days. But we seem to be over the worst of it. Now it's just creating routine.
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Marjorie
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Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
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Post by Marjorie on Jul 28, 2017 16:48:12 GMT -7
Hi, Rob. Unfortunately, finding fully wet pee pads in Oliver's crate is not proof of bladder control. It sounds more as though his bladder is overflowing. The bladder fills up to a point where it can't hold any more urine and than the urine flows out. Bladder overflow is not just a dribble - it can be a lot of urine. And it's not healthy to allow the bladder to overflow.
Unless you see him try to squat and deliberately urinate in his crate, there hasn't been proof of bladder control. The only way we humans can confirm bladder control is to carry the dog to a spot where he's peed before (or a pee pad with his urine or another dog's urine on it), support his hind end but not under the belly, let him sniff the old pee spot and see if he can release urine on his own. If he can, then you know he has bladder control.
I know you tried before to carry him outside to try a sniff and pee test but it didn't go well. I strongly suggest that you either carry him outside to try a sniff and pee test maybe about 3-4 hours after you find wet bedding and let him sniff an old pee spot to see if he can actually release urine on his own. If he can't, then carry him back in and try an hour later and keep trying. Are you using a pee pad in the potty area that has a bit of Oliver's pee on it? If so, you can try a sniff and pee test there. But that test should be done soon and if Oliver cannot release urine on his own (with a deliberate intention to do so and not just the bladder overflowing due to reflex), then you need an immediate lesson on expressing the bladder.
It truly does not sound to me as though Oliver has bladder control. If he doesn't, it's very important that you express his bladder and not allow it to overflow. Overflowing of the bladder stretches the bladder out of shape and urine lying in the bladder too long leads to urinary tract infections.
Usually dogs that can walk have bladder control but not always. My Jeremy can walk but doesn't have bladder control. Please let us know how another sniff and pee test goes.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 29, 2017 3:48:07 GMT -7
Morning!! Well, he definitely has control of himself. We walked outside about 10/20'feet total. He pooped twice. No pee. I have a pee stained wee wee pad of his so I will keep brinigjng it and laying it near his favorite pee area and try every few hours today.
He ate his full breakfast and seems more like myself than at any point.
Oh, Paula/Linda, that nice foam doggie mattress came last night so I just put it in the cage. Fits perfectly. My two fleece throws are in the wash right now. So, the foam mattress gets wrapped in garbage bags and tapped shut. On top of her I will put the fleece throw ansnonntop of that go the wee wee pads??? Is that finally right?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 29, 2017 6:59:34 GMT -7
Rob, the pee pad gets sandwiched between the the bottom trashbag enclosed mattress and the top fleece fabric. The fleece will get tucked in snuggly all around helping to keep the pee pad from shifting/sliding around or bunching up under Oliver's weight. Fleece wicks away moisture that will then be collected by the pee pad underneath.
"""""""" Fleece throw tucked in snug all around to keep pee pad in place ~~~~~ pee pad ===== Mattress enclosed in a trash bag
Do whatever you can to limit his footsteps. The 6 foot leash with harness and your standing in one spot limits how far he can take some footsteps at pottytime. Eating meals should also be inside of his recovery suite. Each time he is taken out of the suite is a potential danger to the weak still healing disc.
If you find the throws are too big, too much bulk to tuck under snugged all around the mattress, then consider if you could cut a throw with scissors down to a better size for the mattress system. Fleece does not ravel so no worries there like other fabrics. Depending you might end up with two fleece "sheets" per one original throw. Measure your new foam mattress, measure a throw and see if you can get two useable fleece "sheets" from one throw. Useful old sewing adage: Measure twice, cut once!
Do let us know when you specifically have observed Oliver doing a sniff, attempt to squat/lift a leg and then release of urine. Passing the sniff and pee test is the ONLY way for us humans to have needed proof of bladder control.
So good to hear that Oliver's personality is coming back, we love to hear this!!!
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 29, 2017 7:16:06 GMT -7
Hi Paula. You clarified all crate issues. Will do. Thabks. Just took him out to his favorite pee spot for 2nd time today and he didn't wanna owe. Took him to favorite spot AND brought out and laid down a previously Oliver scented pee pad. Nada!! Will try again like 3pm...
Just set up the crate,mattress, wee wee pad and fleece and it's perfect. I cut the 2 throws I have in half and it fits perfectly to wrap around snug to keep it all in place.
Now all I need is for him to pee outside and life will be good.....
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 29, 2017 8:56:00 GMT -7
Rob, is there another dog in your building you could get some urine from for a piece of better pee pad inspiration?
You know when he should have to empty his bladder, like an hour or two after a meal or after a big drink of water. Either take him outside or have him inside of his indoor potty place. Then after giving him a minute or so to release urine on his own, can you then try to express his bladder?
When the bladder is full, it practically fills the tummy area. So when quite full you won't feel the shape of a bladder. When so full it takes very little pressure with your hands to express. In fact just lifting to carry can be enough pressure to "express" and he would leak on you if he has no bladder control.
Does Oliver ever leak on you when lifted?
Just trying to figure out what is going on with Oliver and his bladder control ability.
The reason we are concerned to find out if there is bladder control is two fold. ~~ Reflex caused overflowing urine occurs when bladder muscles are overstretched. Continual over stretching can ruin bladder tone permanently.
~~ Reflexes don’t release all urine. What remains after overflowing, quickly becomes a breeding ground for urinary tract infection (UTI).
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 29, 2017 10:48:17 GMT -7
No Paula, never leaks when I lift him or drip AT ALL....
UPDATE: Took him out for the 3rd time to his two favorite pee spots, did not let him walk around, just stay near. I put down his pee soaked wee wee, but didn't have to. He did his Oliver pee squat AND THEN voluntarily started tp pee out a nice decent stream. He slightly dribbled as I put him in his bag, but it's probably his first true squat and pee since 10 days ago so that puts to rest that issue.
OLIVER HAS BLADDER CONTROL.....YAY!!!!
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
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Post by Marjorie on Jul 29, 2017 11:27:49 GMT -7
That's wonderful news, Rob! Yes, you now have your proof and I couldn't be happier for you and Oliver!
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 29, 2017 11:53:56 GMT -7
thanks marjorie
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 29, 2017 13:07:08 GMT -7
I am happy to hear the very good news about Oliver's bladder control.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 29, 2017 14:30:19 GMT -7
So, now that's Oliver is starting to feel more like himself today, he's doing a bit more barking especially after meals when he gets that burst of energy. I'm just letting him be but I'm noticing. Also noticing his right side movements are improving to where his walking looks close to normal today. I guess we're doing things correctly over here. But he ain't getting no sympathy breaks. But he's whining. He wants a jail break. )-:
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 29, 2017 14:46:58 GMT -7
I am very glad to hear that Oliver is feeling better today. When they feel better they often want out of the crate. But we pet parents know best so in he stays.
It is important to keep his walking to the absolute minimum even if he is walking almost normally and wants to keep going. Immobility is what heals the disk
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Jul 29, 2017 15:04:00 GMT -7
Totally agree. But what an emotional rollercoaster!!! Phew!!! Im lucky.
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