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Post by Julie & Perry on Jan 24, 2020 9:04:22 GMT -7
Woohoo, I'm doing my Snoopy happy dance for you both!!!!
That's terrific news. Now that Zeus is comfortable he can start to heal.
I'm so happy everyone got a good night's sleep.
You are doing an awesome job of advocating for Zeus. Congratulations 😀
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 25, 2020 7:48:43 GMT -7
Update on Zeus - he’s still sleeping great at night. My only concern right now is that I’m not sure what he needs - he’s been kind of restless in the kennel, attempted to get out a few times, has been destroying his bumper and throwing his blankets and body all over the place inside, and has been crying off and on for short periods of time. Is this him being bored? Or is it pain? I wouldn’t imagine it would be pain if he’s sleeping through the night...he will lay down to take naps during the day and then get up and start throwing things around in the kennel. It’s a full time job sitting next to him and monitoring him.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 25, 2020 8:07:50 GMT -7
Emily, he is feeling so much better being out of pain. He, of course, doesn't know his disc still need more time to heal. Contact your vet to ask about taking just enough the edge of so that Zeus will be able to relax in his suite with perhaps one of the sedatives. Use of sedative should at first be used when you are home to monitor how it works with Zeus. Calmers are another idea but they may take several days to be come effective. Did you have a chance to run these calmers by your vet to keep him in the loop? DAP pheromone diffuso at level where the recovery suite it PLUS one oral one from below: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 25, 2020 8:14:51 GMT -7
My vet told me the meds he’s on now would/should be sedating enough. I can give Zeus 1/2 of the Robaxun instead of 1/4 tablet every 8 hours - and I can give him 2 capsules of gabapentin every 8 hours instead of 1 capsule. He’s already approved me to do these changes if I felt it was necessary. I just don’t know when it would be considered necessary.
I didn’t bring up those calmers - for a while I was thinking we may not need them at all. My vet is out until Monday so maybe I will send my husband out to pick one of these calmers up if he refuses to nap for the majority of the day.
I did notify my vet about the CBD oil and they didn’t really have anything to say about it besides “okay thank you for letting us know”.
And how do we feel about guests? I cancelled a lunch and game day with a couple of friends but we could use the company from my mom or mother-in-law. I’m just afraid it’ll be too much for him even though we could use the interaction and support.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 25, 2020 9:16:25 GMT -7
Sounds as though you thought out why with Zeus, guests might make him too active...you know Zeus best. From what we've learned by asking a couple of the several neuros who work with Dodgerslist, CDB oil is illegal in most states for a vet to be prescribing and some say even discussing it. Some of the pain meds Zeus is on can have the side effect of sedation and the Robaxin at higher levels making he muscle too relaxed that he may fall. Look up these three and discuss if they could take the edge off of Zeus' anxiety to allow him to relax in his suite. Trazodone, ACEpromazine, alprazolam Zeus is making strides that being so energetic could re-tear his early healiing disc. Zeus does not need a painful setback by being too active. Setback of a relasped disc would mean to start at square one of in the count out of 8 weeks of disc healing! Many owners have found the use of a stroller while they are at home, helps alot. The height of the stroller allows the dog to see move of his home. They, of course love being, by your side as you move about the house and if the weather is good then to sit out on the deck with you. Don't need anything expensive as you are just using it in the house or the deck. Stroller features and what to consider: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htm
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 26, 2020 9:04:23 GMT -7
Today marks 1 week since Zeus’ injury. I saw some movement in Jazzys hind legs by this point when she had her injury but I’m trying not to compare and worry - Zeus is 10 years older than what she was when she went through this. I just hope I see some progress with his legs somewhat soon.
Zeus is appearing to have issues getting comfortable in his kennel. I have a 4in mattress, a bumper, a blanket, water, and a small toy in there with him but he wakes up often to move his head or to try and turn his body in the kennel - looking for a comfortable spot that he can’t really find. The search has been coming with a single pitiful cry before he lays down again to try the new spot. We are using a diffuser now in addition to all his meds and what not. We have a calming treat also coming from Amazon today but he is pretty calm...he just seems frustrated that he can’t find a good place for his body to rest.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 26, 2020 9:31:47 GMT -7
Emily, see if you also observe other signs of pain to help you determine if Zeus is suffering with pain or giving you signs of frustration in being contained or not being able to move as he normally would with his legs, or anxiety and other side effects pain meds could cause. This detective work can be a challenge, as we owners naturally and generally correctly attribute pain as the cause when we observe the usual painful signs that go with a disc episode. Example: is that "pitiful cry" the same type of vocalization he used when he had been actual pain, or a different sound he uses when he is frustrated? Is his tummy soft— when a dog feels painful in their back/neck, often the tummy muscles tighten up, tool SIGNS OF PAIN: ◻︎ shivering-trembling ◻︎ yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎ slow to move ◻︎ tight tense tummy ◻︎ arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ◻︎ slow or reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎ not eating due to overall pain ◻︎ not their normal perky selves, interested in the world around them
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 26, 2020 10:18:11 GMT -7
I believe he is just frustrated - this pitiful cry is not the same as the one he was making when he was appearing to have muscle spasms. Once he finds a comfy place, he sleeps for a while. His tummy feels soft, when he goes outside to potty he is not "slow to move", the only thing on that list that would fit him right now (in my opinion) is the restless/unable to find a comfortable position.
I feel like we go forward one step and back four. He was in a deep sleep for at least an hour or two and I woke him up to take him out because he hadn't gone out in a couple of hours - he had fresh pee beneath him. Which is odd to me because he has been telling us when he needs to go out. We took him out and he went and peed on his own but he seems to get impatient with the amount of pee coming out so he will stop before he is ready to stop. When my husband went to pick him up, pee started spraying out. I don't believe he has lost his ability to urinate on his own but this was certainly out of character and unexpected. Of course, we just gave him a tea bath yesterday.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 26, 2020 11:31:05 GMT -7
Emily, be watchful that he still maintains ability when outdoors of sniffing an old pee spot and then making a decision to release urine there. That is bladder control
Lifting causing pee to escape is normally due to the brain not being able to close the sphincter muscle until the brain directs release due to being in a appropriate place. If his bladder were to be so full, that pressure on tummy area when lifting may have been last straw and brain directed open the sphincter! I don't know...so just something to be watchful that he can still sniff and pee when outside.
Leaking when sleeping, like children leaking in their bed while sleeping, but when awake they have no issues. So not related to loss of bladder control.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 26, 2020 11:44:58 GMT -7
It’s almost like his bladder is too full. When I woke him up this morning, I got outside and before I could get him in the sling, I noticed he peed a few droplets like he really had to go. Once in the sling, he went over to our gravel rocks and peed immediately.
Then the above situation happened later in the day. Zeus pre-injury has ALWAYS peed A LOT and drank A LOT. I feared he was diabetic for a while until the vet told me that he wasn’t. He’s drank a lot and peed a lot for years - and has indoors accidents frequently. But he also always pees when we take him out - pre and post injury. He’s sniffing and peeing outside.
I don’t want to restrict his water in take for obvious reasons. Should I maybe push on his bladder outside to help him get it all out?
And with him peeing while asleep, do you mean he was in a deep sleep and relaxed too much? It was a little more than a leakage
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 26, 2020 11:52:00 GMT -7
Emily, yes maybe Zeus was in such deep sleep and dreaming, perhaps he did not realize he was releasing urine in his bed. From what you report he clearly has bladder control. Dogs who have bladder control will not like you pressing on their bladder and overriding their control. Would not restrict his water intake. You might like to attach the bowl at head height so no tipping over accidents happen. Just looking at your avatar and see the bowl on the floor of the crate.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 26, 2020 11:59:17 GMT -7
I’ll go ahead and move that up in the kennel, I see the concern there.
We will try walking him a little more because it’s not uncommon for Zeus to pee two or three spots while outside - it’s just such a double edged sword because I know he shouldn’t be moving around much out there either so we are pretty quick to bring him in once he does pee at least one instance.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 26, 2020 15:25:50 GMT -7
Emily, think in terms of limited footsteps rather that the term "walking" at potty time. Give the command "go potty" just as you see he is circling and about to pee. The when he does give lavish praise for peeing. So with some practice, he may learn to go on your command of "go potty."
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 27, 2020 4:40:10 GMT -7
Zeus is testing us. Let me begin by saying - we’ve been doing the composure calming treats, diffuser, scarf that smells like me, I’ve been confined to sitting in front of his kennel and partially in it, I’ve tried giving him extra of his muscle relaxer (approved by vet), I’ve tried extra of the gabapentin (approved by vet), and I’ve started and stopped the CBD oil. We have tried everything. He’s tired and wants to sleep - but he’s upset he’s in this kennel. He’s crying nonstop regardless of always being within eye distance from us. He didn’t sleep through the night last night which hasn’t been an issue since the first few days. We’ve tried frozen broth cubes and a kong to help with boredom - he plays with it and then starts crying after it’s done. Unless we have a bull tranquilizer, he’s not going to be calm and sleep like he should. I’m exhausted.
Zeus has never been able to be kennel trained. My sister tried for his first 4 years and I tried for several years after. He doesn’t mind being in one spot. But he can’t stand to have a gate around him (we also have an expen we have tried).
In addition that, we had to restrict water. Yes, we did. Hear me out. Zeus drinks excessively. When I say excessively, I mean it. He always has and now that there’s a bowl always in his face, he’s doing just that. In the last 24 hours - he’s had 4 messes in his kennel. Last night, for example, he kept crying when he was eye level during bed time so we took him out three times back to back thinking he had to pee - he peed HUGE amounts outside each time. At 2AM, he woke me up and I took him outside to pee which he did so in a large amount. At 4:30AM, my husband woke Zeus up and took him out, he had to pee so bad that he peed on the front of my husband before he got in his sling - then he peed a huge trail on the ground. 20 min later, he started crying again so I went to go get him and he had pee all in his kennel. I took him out immediately and he peed a ton outside. I don’t mind doing laundry. But we have to go to work and there’s no one here for 7 hours to take him out constantly. He will be laying in pee for however long until we get home. Pee scalds the body and that’s more reason for him to get up and be restless. My uncle has owned doxies for decades and when he watched Zeus for a week (pre-injury) he was convinced Zeus was diabetic because he’s never seen a dog drink and pee so much. But the vet confirmed he is NOT diabetic. I’m not doing this to be cruel - it seems like the only feasible option and something we did pre-injury to try to cut back on his inside messes.
Yesterday (1/26), Zeus had two messes in his kennel and peed on my husband and I on two instances before we could get him in his sling.
With Jazzy, this got easier as the weeks went on. She quickly developed her routine and so did we. This hasn’t been the case with Zeus. We are only down one week and risking reinjury.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 27, 2020 6:43:42 GMT -7
You should speak to the vet about prescribing a mild tranquilizer for Zeus, Emily. It can take a few days for the diffuser to work. It's better to sedate him than to risk re-injury and not resting and healing. I'm sorry he's having such a difficult time adjusting to the crate.
Is the vet aware of the Zeus' excessive thirst? That could be a dangerous side effect of the NSAID that he's currently on but since this is not something new, it could also be a sign of not only diabetes but kidney failure or Cushings disease. The vet should be made aware of this.
Wiping Zeus' legs and belly with cooled down decaf green tea can help prevent scalding. Green tea neutralizes the acidity of the urine and leaves a nice fresh scent.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 27, 2020 8:48:02 GMT -7
I talk to the vet and he’s pretty concerned about the urinating. I’ll remind him about a sedative later but he wants me to bring Zeus in after I get off work to get some bloodwork done. Is bloodwork typically analyzed the same day? They have a lab at my vet - I don’t know if I could stand to wait a couple days for some answers.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 27, 2020 9:09:27 GMT -7
You'd have to ask if the vet's lab can do the bloodwork panel in house or are they sending it out.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 27, 2020 16:39:25 GMT -7
The vet prescribed an “as needed” sedative for Zeusy. They did blood work which we will hopefully hear something about tomorrow...the vet isn’t ruling out kidney failure and I’m so beside myself. He did rule out diabetes based on the urine sample - but he also said it’s obvious the kidneys aren’t doing anything to the urine because he’s basically peeing straight water. So the bloodwork will determine if the kidneys can’t do their job or are refusing to. Zeus has drank excessive water a excessively peed for months - if not a year. But it’s gotten noticeably worse these past few days. I’m so sick.
He’s starting to try to use his hind legs again outside. Had some diarrhea but the vet thinks that could be related to the pill pockets we’ve had to give him to get all of his meds down.
Please send prayers and hugs for this momma. My worst fears for my baby are coming to life while I hopelessly stand by.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jan 27, 2020 18:28:43 GMT -7
Emily, am so sorry Zeus is having kidney issues. Praying for his return to health and for clarity in what to do.
Sending hugs to you both.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 27, 2020 18:49:23 GMT -7
Emily, you might like to read a bit on the kidneys in order to ask pertinent questions tomorrow and discuss should this be a kidney issue. The Mar Vista Veterinary website starts the article with: " Whether the pet is brought in sick or whether the condition is discovered incidentally on routine lab work, the diagnosis of kidney failure can come as a shock. It does not help that the term "kidney failure" sounds dramatic and evokes images of on-going sickness, expensive hospitalization, and doom. In fact, the term "kidney failure" simply means that the kidneys are not able to do at least some of the tasks they are supposed to do as well as they are supposed to do them. Here is the link for the full artifcle: www.marvistavet.com/kidney-failure-where-to-begin.pmlMarvelous news of Zeus starting to use those back legs!! Can't keep a good man down! What is the name of the RX sedative? ? mgs each dose?
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 28, 2020 8:32:38 GMT -7
The vet called and Zeus’ bloodwork came back normal!!! However, he doesn’t know what is precisely causing this issue so he wants me to stop the Roboxun and Tramadol. He said he did some research and he couldn’t find any direct link as to why it would make him so thirsty but he wants to see if there’s any change within 24 hours of being off of those two meds.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 14lbs Novox as of 1/20: 37.5mgs 1x/day for 14 days, then 2/3 test stop to reveal any: _pain / _neuro gabapentin 100mgs 3x/day Robaxin 125mgs 3x/day 24 hr test stop 1/28 re: excessing thirst/peeing tramadol 50mgs 3x/day 24 hr test stop 1/28 re: excessing thirst/peeing famotidine 5mgs 2x/day ✙ACEpromazine 2.5mgs as needed]
As needed sedative: ✙acetaminophen [correction: ACEpromazine]10 mg tablets - Zeus gets 1/4 of the tablet up to twice a day or 1/2 tablet up to twice a day but after giving him 1/4 last night, I won’t be upping it any. He lost interest in his treats with his meds, water, food, etc for up to 8 hours when it finally wore off. He still woke up through the night, somewhat discontent and I had to take him potty at 11:30 and 3am. He was pretty loopy.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 28, 2020 10:18:18 GMT -7
Emily, what a relief to have normal blood panel test results!! That is a mystery on the thirst issue. Let us know what you observe with the stop of two pain meds. Any pain surfacing? drinking issue change?
Please look again at the sedative bottle and make sure of the correct name.
Acetaminophen is Tylenol(®). The use of the drug in veterinary practice is uncommon.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 28, 2020 10:35:35 GMT -7
So sorry - the correct name is ACEpromazine. No problem I have made the change on the med list.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 29, 2020 5:07:24 GMT -7
I’ve got to call the vet again today. We took Zeus off of Robaxin and Tramadol for 24 hrs and we are still seeing a lot of thirst and a ton of pee. He peed in his kennel twice while I was gone, despite me giving him minimal water in the morning. He woke up three times throughout the night to go potty. In the evening, we took him out every 45 minutes and he peed each and every time. And this morning he peed twice outside in the same bathroom trip - both in huge amounts and will probably go once more before I leave.
I did my own research on his medications and from what I’ve seen, they all have side effects of dry mouth and/or increased thirst.
I thought he was in pain last night (we are assessing for pain off of Tramadol and Roboxin) because he woke up panting, but I uncovered him and he went back to bed just fine (I think he was hot). The only other sign of pain I’m seeing is a tight stomach. No yelping that I’ve observed.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Jan 29, 2020 6:28:22 GMT -7
A tight stomach IS a sign of pain, Emily. Please let the vet know ASAP of this sign of pain that you're observing. And please remind the vet that the increased thirst started before any meds were given. I do hope that Zeus can get back on pain meds today so he can rest and heal in comfort. Pain does hinder healing and no one wants Zeus to be uncomfortable.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 29, 2020 16:32:40 GMT -7
Zeus is back on Tramadol and Roboxin. It was the hope of our vet that going off of these two medications would resolve the potty issue but it did not so he advised me to put him back on it. He pottied in his kennel while we were at work and peed a lot when my husband got home - we are taking him out every hour this evening.
The vet’s second theory is that the pill pockets I’ve been giving to him for his meds could be giving him a ton of sodium (they have 28.34 milligrams of sodium in each treat and we have been giving him an average of 6 a day for meds). We are giving him his meds inside of bread now - but we know how stubborn Zeus has been with taking his meds anyway.
The vet’s third theory is that it’s a UTI since and wanted to treat him for it to be on the safe side. He’s now on Amoxycillin 100mg - one tablet twice a day. Within 48 hours, we should know if either of these theories are correct.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 14lbs Novox as of 1/20: 37.5mgs 1x/day for 14 days, then 2/3 test stop to reveal any: _pain / _neuro gabapentin 100mgs 3x/day Robaxin 125mgs 3x/day tramadol 50mgs 3x/day famotidine 5mgs 2x/day ✙Amoxycillin 100mg 2x/day for possible UTI ACEpromazine 2.5mgs as needed]
Plan B if this doesn’t work - in 48 hours we will have to decide if we want to get more tests done for something that didn’t come up in blood work (I.e. cushings disease or another unitary tract issue) which would be bad for multiple reasons besides cost - it would mean I would have to drop off Zeus to the vet all day and hope they know how to care for his back issue like we have.
He’s pretty restless tonight. I haven’t been able to sedate him because we are trying to work out this potty issue and sedating him masks it and/or relaxes him so much that he’s pottying in his sleep. His tummy doesn’t feel as tight as it did but regardless, he’s back on the Robox and Tram.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jan 29, 2020 17:14:03 GMT -7
Sounds like you and your vet are doing everything right.
I hope you won't need to leave Zeus at the vet's.
If you do, remember to pad out the sides of the crate with towels or blankets and to seat belt in the crate.
At the vet's I'd ask for one main person to handle Zeus and if they don't know IVDD I'd take the time to educate them.
Put a sign in red ink by his crate at the vet's: IVDD dog, move as little as possible, support both ends and keep horizontal.
Continuing prayers for you both.
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PaulaM
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 29, 2020 18:59:36 GMT -7
Emily, fingers crossed to be able to find out if too much sodium or a UTI with what the vet prescribed and change in how you administer meds.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Jan 30, 2020 10:42:29 GMT -7
Last night we still had to take Zeus out multiple times during the night - however, when he went back to bed, he slept soundly which was not the case a couple of nights ago (we had to stay up for 39 minutes to get him to go back to bed). He was only peeing small amounts and drinking small amounts last night so I was hopeful he wouldn’t mess in his kennel today. My husband checked on him during his break (something he rarely can do) and said Zeus peed in his kennel, had a hunched back, and was reluctant to move outside. After he cleaned up the kennel, he took him outside again and Zeus was moving a lot better, using his front and hind legs (hind legs are still weak) and no longer had a hunch. It could’ve been a muscle spasm. He’s back on the Roboxin and Tramadol and has been back on those for nearly 24 hours.
I guess my fear is that he won’t be ready to come off his pain meds on 2/3. I’m also still confused as to why he is messing in his kennel. Will remaining on these pain meds hinder his graduation date at all? (As in push back the date).
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jan 30, 2020 15:00:00 GMT -7
I am sorry that you had to take Zeus out several times during the night. That is so hard.
If his hunched back and reluctance to move goes away when he starts to move it sounds more like arthritis than IVDD symptoms.
We have Strict crate rest as starting January 19. That would make graduation day March 15. By then it is very possible that Zeus is not on any meds. There are a few dogs who stay on small doses of meds long term but whether Zeus will be one of these cannot be determined at this point.
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