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Post by Nadine & Wendy on Dec 30, 2019 16:09:39 GMT -7
I just joined. My answers to the questions:
1. My Wendy weighs 12 lbs. She was prescribed Tramadol 1/2 of a 50mg tablet twice a day, Rimadyl 1/2 of a 25 mg. tablet twice a day.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 12 lbs Rimadyl as of 12/28: 12.5mgs 2x/day for 14 days then 1/11 test for pain stop tramadol 25 mgs 2x/day needs GI tract protector, Pepcid AC, on board w Rimadyl ]
2. Dachshund. Wendy. My name is Nadine. 3. Yes, I got an IVDD diagnosis and the vet is a general DVM. 4. Just saw the vet Saturday, Dec. 28.
5. Currently she doesn't seem to be in pain, but she is on a pain med so maybe that is why.
6. Eating and drinking and eliminating okay. Though her solid waste just seems to fall out, she doesn't push it like normal.
7. Wendy can wag her tail but her rear legs just drag.
8. She seems to be urinating okay though it doesn't seem like as much comes out. I do notice a weird odor now in her crate but her bedding doesn't feel wet.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 30, 2019 18:10:57 GMT -7
Nadine, welcome to Dodgerslist Forum! Good to hear on rather minium pain meds she is in comfort. Do keep a watchout, knowing your vet has plentyof room to be more aggressive should you see pain surfacing near the next dose of Tramadol, or when she moves to reposition her body in the recovery suite. Alert your vet to any sign of pain via a phone call to adjust the pain meds. Also be very watchful that bladder control is also not being affected. Poop just falling out is a sign of loss of bowel control. YOu can express for poop to keep her from being anxious in finding poop where she sleeps. Bladder control on the other hand is a very serious health issue if lost. If she leaks on you when lifted, urine has a different odor or color she may need you to get a lesson from your vet on how to express the bladder. When control has been lost a urinary tract infection (UTI) can happen quickly in a matter of days if the dog is not being expressed. Good videos on expressing for poop and for getting more out of a hands-on-top-of-your-hands type of bladder expressing lesson from your vet should you need to learn: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm Let us know you are on the same page about the single most important care you can provide Wendy. The centerpiece of "DISC disease" treatment is the healing of the disc via limited movement of the back via a recovery suite. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong disc scar tissue to form. -- Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm -- PLUS further guidance on conservative treatment on our "All Things IVDD page: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htmSTRICT means: - no laps - no couches - no baths - no sleeping with you - no chiro therapy - no dragging or meandering at potty times. Carry your dog to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very, very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog's back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! Wendy and you surely do not need another issue to deal with on top of this disc episode. To that end we follow the proactive vets when Rimadyl is in use. Proactive vets don’t wait til there is lip licking of nausea, not eating, vomit, diarrhea leading to serious bleeding ulcers, red or black blood in stool due to the extra stomach acids anti-inflammatory drugs cause. Pepcid AC (famotidine) blocks the production of acid. The usual dose of Pepcid AC (famotidine) with a disc episode is 0.44mg mg per pound every 12 hours. Pepcid AC has a very limited potential for side effects. Ask if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn’t need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a “no health” issues answer, then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine).
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Post by Nadine & Wendy on Dec 31, 2019 7:49:38 GMT -7
Thank you so much for your reply Paula. Going through this with Wendy is eye-opening. My husband and I are doing all the right things. This site is so helpful! Question...She doesn’t seem to be in pain obviously because she is on a pain med. At what point should we try to see how she does without it. And what is your take on CBD oil?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Dec 31, 2019 9:11:13 GMT -7
Nadine, very good question about how the meds work with a disc episode. Owners need this kind of understanding of what, when to monitor at the test stop of Rimadyl. Owners are then best be able to converse with their vets. The full information you'll want to read is from our Website: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm In summary at the test stop of Rimadyl and the pain meds the rule of thumb is: pain surfacing = swelling = more time on non-steroid anti-inflammatory (NSAID), pain meds and Pepcid AC needed. NOTE: Always have a plan in place with the vet before the test for pain stop begins on what you should do should pain surface. Have enough meds on hand or an Rx to fill at a 24 hr pharmacy should pain or neuro issues happen over a weekend or evening when the Vet is closed, to save an expensive ER visit. The treasure trove of IVDD information is located not on the Forum but over on the main www.dodgerslist.com website. Here on the Forum we help you to sort out newly gained knowledge as it relates specifically for your Wendy so that you can best discuss things with your vet and advocate when necessary. CDB Oil and other things requiring owners to think about before jumping on bandwagons is here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Supplements.htm Look for the search box on our website a very helpful tool in locating other topics: QUESTIONS-- So that we, too, can be prepared, let us know for how many days that course of Rimadyl is for -- Let us know when you have Pepcid AC (famotidine) on board for the duration of Rimadyl.
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Post by Nadine & Wendy on Jan 1, 2020 17:59:24 GMT -7
Paula, I was given 14 tablets of Rimadyl so that would be 14 days worth. How much Pepcid should I give her? I got the Maximum Strength (20mg) tablets but I see you posted a picture of the Original Strength. Can I just cut the tablets?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 1, 2020 19:18:27 GMT -7
Nadine, as quoted: "The usual dose of Pepcid AC (famotidine) with a disc episode is 0.44mg mg per pound every 12 hours. Pepcid AC has a very limited potential for side effects. " 12 lbs dog x 0.44mgs Pepcid AC = 5.28 mgs of Pepcid AC every 12 hours. Round down to 5mgs dose for Wendy.
Look at the box you purchased. Make sure it contains only ONE active ingredient (famotidine). You will have to split the pill to get to a 5mg dose.
So that 20mg tablet will require you to split the pill into 4 parts.
Each part would then be a 5mg dose. You will need to give 5mgs every 12 hrs.
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Post by Nadine & Wendy on Jan 2, 2020 19:30:08 GMT -7
Thanks Paula. Yep, I did the math last night and have her a quarter of a [✙Pepcid AC] tablet.
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 12 lbs Rimadyl as of 12/28: 12.5mgs 2x/day for 14 days then 1/11 test stop for _Pain/ _Neuro tramadol 25 mgs 2x/day ✙Pepcid AC 5mgs 2x/day ]
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Post by Nadine & Wendy on Jan 4, 2020 11:36:30 GMT -7
I am afraid that Wendy got worse last night. A friend came over and rang the doorbell. Wendy reacts to doorbells like crazy! She may have had a set back because she was very very wiggly and moving a lot in her crate because of it. We tried to consul her immediately. She did stop after a minute, but now when we did the test squeeze in between her back toes, she is not retracting her back legs like she did in the vet's office and like she did the other day. Is this cause for concern???
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jan 4, 2020 13:15:03 GMT -7
Nadine, please do not do that pinch the toes thing. Most DVM vets incorrectly identify this neuro function (deep pain Sensation) incorrectly...so likely you will not learn anything (reflex or an actual neuro function movement) and you may cause too much movement for Wendy's disc. Only trust the word of a board certified Neuro (ACVIM) or orth (ACVS) about deep pain sensation. How to monitor neuro functions. As damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions. When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order. 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. Wobbly walking, legs cross 3. Nails/toes scuffing floor 4. Paws knuckle under 5. Weak/little leg movement, can't move up into a stand 6. Legs do not work at all (paralysis, dog is down) 7. Bladder control is lost. Leaks on you when lifted. Can no longer sniff and then pee on that old urine spot outdoors. 8. Tail wagging with joy is lost 9. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. If surgery is not an option (for whatever reason) then the best option is conservative therapy. Surgery can still be successful in the window of 12-24 hours after loss of deep pain sensation. Even after that window of time, there can still be a good outcome. Each hour that passes decreases that chance. Precious hours can be lost with a vet that gets DPS wrong. Trust only the word of a neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) surgeon about DPS. So if surgery is an option for your family get to a neuro or ortho asap. A quick overview of conservative treatment vs. a surgery: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsurgery.htm#surgeryVSconservativeTell us if she has increased pain showing nearing the next dose of meds or when she has to be moved for move to reposition in her suite? There would be much room for your vet to take a more aggressive pain med approach if you are now seeing pain. 're seeing so meds can be adjusted. Advocate that any of the pain meds be given 3x/day (every 8 hours). —Methocarbamol works on the pain of muscle spasms. — Tramadol is the general pain reliever. — Gabapentin works on nerve pain. There should be no sign of pain from one dose of meds to the next. Have no patience with pain as it does hinder healing. Look for your dog to be acting their normal, perky self when pain is fully under control round the clock. SIGNS OF PAIN: ◻︎ shivering-trembling ◻︎ yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎ slow to move ◻︎ tight tense tummy ◻︎ arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎ head held high or nose to the ground. ◻︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ◻︎ slow or reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎ looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. ◻︎ not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain ◻︎ holds front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ◻︎ not their normal perky selves
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Post by Nadine & Wendy on Feb 8, 2020 7:11:26 GMT -7
Good morning Paula. I am giving you an update on Wendy. We are at the 6 week mark of strict crate rest and she is showing a lot of improvement. Wendy is able to stand on her back legs and will wobble when she walks. We still use the back sling and harness when she potties and then right back inside her recovery suite. She is off pain meds and finished two rounds of anti-inflammatories.
Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 12 lbs Rimadyl as of 12/28: 12.5mgs 2x/day for 14 days then 1/11 test stop for _Pain/ _Neuro as of : 2nd course of Rimadyl for X days?]
At this point, my vet said there is nothing more she can do and further treatment will require a specialist such as a neurologist which I haven’t consulted yet. I like the idea of water therapy and would like to try that next. I just wanted to check in on your thoughts. Thanks!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 8, 2020 10:40:15 GMT -7
Nadine, wow, going from dragging back legs to already having the abilty to wobbly walk...well that is fabulous news!
The focus on conservative treatment is the 8 weeks of strict rest to allow the disc to heal. So one may or may not see nerve function repair in that short of time. But Wendy IS, indeed, showing you she is self healing her nerves already!!
For how many days was the 2nd course of Rimadyl?
Right now with being off all meds and there is no sign of pain, there is nothing left to do but to continue being strict with crate rest for the remainder of the 8 weeks. Now that she has the ability to take some wobbly footsteps at potty time, that will be enough PT for those back legs — keep the footsteps allowed to the fewest to take care of business. The disc is still in the process of forming scar tissue and too much movement could disrupt/tear what has formed.
Graduation day will be Feb 22 — Mark your calendar!! As you approach graduation day with more updates, then we will be able to advise about which direction to go in regarding PT, etc. Personally, I from what you report, I do not see the need to spend money on a neuro consult. But reserve that money for additonal PT if even that would be needed. Still too early to tell. Look forward to your next update.
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Post by Nadine & Wendy on Feb 8, 2020 15:58:12 GMT -7
Paula, in response to what I just wrote, I know you said it may be too early to tell about the course of PT. I will get back to you on February 22. Thank you Paula. What sort of PT would be best? I was thinking some water therapy. We have a large jacuzzi tub that I was thinking of using. And I hear some people resort to acupuncture. What about just small doses of walking around the yard after the 8 weeks? Anything else?
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Feb 8, 2020 16:08:11 GMT -7
Wendy is doing very well at this point. It may be that by graduation day simply walking around the yard will help her build up strength Wendy's graduation day is February 22 and after that date, if still needed, water therapy can be considered. This helped my dog Frankie a lot during his IVDD episode. Frankie went to a rehab facility where he walked on an underwater treadmill but many of our members do water therapy at home. Here is some info on water therapy you can do at home after graduation: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/watertherapy
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Post by Nadine & Wendy on Feb 20, 2020 18:29:07 GMT -7
Hi again. We are just one day away from Wendy's graduation date from crate rest. We will start water therapy. Question...does this mean she has free reign of the house as she did before the injury? She is sliding on our non carpeted floors. Should we look into some type of nonslip footwear? I can't image she would wear any.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Feb 20, 2020 19:22:33 GMT -7
Nadine you did it...you made sure Wendy had every possiblity to heal her disc! Good job! Now is a good time to be determining how you are going to ease back into more normal activity at graduation. The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions. Not free reign of the house and yard immediately! LOL Take a look at our information and then come up with a plan to gradually increase activity over about a month's time following the end of crate rest. Also check out how to teach four paws on the floor! www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmIf you haven't already given thought to make home modifications so that you can reduce the stress on the spine in the future we got ideas! No more stairs, ramps up to furniture, or blocking furniture all together. All those ideas and more are in this link: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/protectback.htmLook into inexpensive rug runners to give necessary traction over hard floor surfaces. With time Wendy will improve in walking and better able to control her muscles. What kind of water therapy. Underwater treadmill? The movement of the hip joints and muscles and the changes in pressure on the paws from the underwater treadmill triggers spinal cord communication with the brain. Water bouyancy makes it easier than leg movements against gravity. There is not only the potential to regrow damaged neuronal pathyways but also for neuron to muscle re-education to learn the art of walking again.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Feb 20, 2020 21:09:50 GMT -7
I'm doing my Snoopy happy dance for you both!!! Woohoo, you did it!
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Post by Nadine & Wendy on Apr 10, 2020 7:19:27 GMT -7
Good morning Paula. Wendy continues to do well. I feel as if she is as good as she is going to get. But I am happy with this. She walks with just an occasional wobble of her back end. She is not interested in going up or down our stairs but from what I read, she shouldn't be anyway. We carry her. Question...is she susceptible to a repeat episode? I am thinking the answer is yes.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 10, 2020 8:09:34 GMT -7
Good Morning, Nadine. Going from legs dragging Dec 2019 to now just an occasional wobble is pretty good stuff!!! Who knows she may even be able to improve on that. Only time will tell. Good to hear Wendy is not interested in tackling steps/stairs. That could change. So do what you can to protect her discs from jarring activities. Teach her to use a ramp to furniture. Block off the "never things" with a gate, pillows, etc. You might like these videos on how to teach your little one: -- Not to pull on the leash- www.dog-obedience-training-review.com/leash-training-a-dog.html -- No sitting up or standing on back legs. sit down rather than jump
-- Keep all four feet on the ground
IVDD is quite hard to predict re: if there would be another disc episode. As you can see any one of the discs could be subject to prematurely aging enough to have a problem. In my crew of doxies, one had a disc episode at 1 year old and then never another for the 13 years she lived (cancer took her out). Then others of mine had several disc episodes.
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Post by Nadine & Wendy on Jun 15, 2020 20:25:06 GMT -7
Thank you so much for everything Paula!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 16, 2020 8:44:10 GMT -7
Nadine, how is Wendy doing now a days?
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