|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Oct 19, 2019 19:57:38 GMT -7
[Original thread: Gnocchi 2nd flare up IVDD] Hi everyone, so glad to have found this forum. Our Gnocchi is a 29lb 4 yr old (5 in December) male French Bulldog. Gnocchi was diagnosed with IVDD in june of this year. During that episode he was not in much pain and drunk walked for a few days and immediately got better with the start of prednisone gabapentin and rest. We thought we were very lucky or missed diagnosed. Also, i will note that surgery is unfortunately and embarrassingly not an option. Fast forward to October 9th, Gnocchi started showing signs of pain and hesitation to walk. This time it was more pain at first then other symptoms. He was started on gabapentin, prednisone and robaxin. Also an antibiotic on the 11th as we thought the dribbling of urine that started may be a uti, he finished that antibx today. Gnocchi stayed the same then on the day of his recheck appointment with the vet which was the 16th he was walking fine although he still had a little foot drag when tested and seemed to be on the mend but still in pain so she added tramadol, sulcrafate at my request for a stomach protectant and okayed cbd oil at my inquiry (cbd started 18th). Well Thursday night the 17th it got so bad. Gnocchi now has no control of his back legs and is dragging himself, he voids when picked up but i still need to express his bladder when outside. He deficates small amounts when outside with no real pattern any more although they still look healthy. Some days when hand fed he will eat one meal when mixed with wet food and some days he won't [eat]. He will usually accept water when offered. As of today Gnocchi is on the following: Gabapentin 100mg q12hrs Prednisone 5mg q12hrs (he was to start tappering on 17th but vet said to continue q12hrs for now) Robaxin 125mg q12hrs prn▲Tramadol 25mg q12hrs prn (although i broke down tonight and gave him the other 1/2 tab or 25mg a few hours after his dose) Sulcrate 500mg q12hrs [Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 29lbs crate rest started 10/15 too much movement at check up trip to vet 10/16 walking good lost control of legs and bladder Oct 17 Prednisone as of 10/17 relapse: 5mgs 2x/day for ? days, then test taper for _pain / _neur0 Robaxin 125mgs 2x/day gabapentin 100mgs 2x/day Tramadol 25mgs ▲3x/day sucralfate 500mgs 2x/day]
And now 5mg cbd oil bid (questionable how much he gets/ doesn't spit out) Are these doses enough?? Confinement started the 15th, although probably too much movement going to vet on 16th.He is still shivering in pain at times, breathing fast at times, always reluctant to move, yelps which he has NEVER done before I am so affraid i will have to put him down. He is so young and usually such a happy guy. Please help us! It's heartbreaking
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Oct 19, 2019 20:51:26 GMT -7
Gnocchi needs more pain medication. As soon as possible call your vet and ask to have gabapentin and Tramadol 3x daily and add methocarbomal for muscle spasms.
He can get through this. Many people can't do surgery and conservative crate rest can work.
Make sure he's crated 24/7 for 8 weeks.
If he voids when picked up it could be overflow. If he can sniff and pee he has bladder control. If not he'll need expressing every 3-4 hours while on Prednisone. It makes dogs very thirsty so they drink a lot.
My Perry was where Gnocchi is now a year ago and now he's up and running.
Hang in there!
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Oct 19, 2019 21:21:41 GMT -7
Methocarbamol is robaxin- so he is on that. I guess he needs dose adjustments...i am looking for suggestions as the vet is closed until monday. She has been very good with us though. As i said i broke down and gave him the extra 25mg tramadol tonight and he seems to be sleeping much more comfortably. I dont want him in pain tomorrow so i will up his dose a little (i am not an expert on animal dosing at all but i am a registered nurse and will watch closely for adverse effects) I am also wondering if i should give the robaxin and tramadol together or if more beneficial to separate... Your story gives me hope though thank you
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
|
Post by Marjorie on Oct 20, 2019 4:28:23 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. Is your name Jenna? So glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve gleaned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you. **Disc disease is not a death sentence! ** Struggling with quality of life questions? Re-think things: www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htmAs Julie said, you have a pain emergency that must be addressed by a vet ASAP. If your vet is not available until Monday, take Gnocchi to the nearest emergency room vet. He should not have to be in pain until Monday. It's not good to adjust pain meds yourself. All of the pain meds that Gnocchi is on work most efficiently when given 3x/day (every 8 hours). Just be sure to pad Gnocchi's crate well with rolled up towels/blankets so he doesn't jostle around too much during transport to a vet. We are not vets and do not know the specifics of each dog's health. We are making this suggestion based on what we've seen qualified vets prescribe in the past and only as a basis for discussion with your vet. Gabapentin Dose recommended (empiric) for gabapentin: 10–20 mg/kg every 8 hours Outpatient oral analgesics in dogs and cats beyond nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drugs: An evidence-based approach. KuKanich B. Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract 43(5):1109-1125, 2013. Methocarbamol (Robaxin) Initially, methocarbamol is dosed at 7 to 20 mg per pound (15 to 44 mg/kg) up to three times daily. The dose of methocarbamol should not exceed 110 mg per pound (300 mg/kg) per day. www.petplace.com/article/drug-library/library/prescription/methocarbamol-robaxin-v Written by: Dr. Dawn Ruben Last Modified: August 11, 2015 Tramadol dosing in dogs varies, ranging from 2 to 5 mg/kg every 8-12 hours. The highest dose for maximum analgesic effect in dogs is 10 mg/kg every 8 hours. “Tramadol” Plumb DC. In Plumb DC (ed): Plumb’s Veterinary Drug Handbook, 7th ed—Ames: Wiley-Blackwell, 2011, pp 1002-1004. Tramadol 3 to 5 mg/kg (0.5 to 2.5 mg/lb) every 8 hrs to QID (up to 6 times daily at lower dose) Anecdotal reports include 10 mg/kg QID for more severe pain vasg.org/t_drugs.htm#TRAMAlso Gnocchi is showing red flag signs of GI distress from the Prednisone by not wanting to eat his regular meals. That may be due to pain but it also may be due to GI distress. Please speak to a vet ASAP about adding Pepcid AC as a second stomach protector. Ask if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn’t need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a “no health” issues answer, then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine). canigivemydog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/can-i-give-my-dog-pepcid-ac-300x300.jpg  Doxie weight dogs: 5mg Pepcid AC (famotidine) every 12 hours. NOTE: Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.htmlDid the vet mention whether this could be a neck problem? Neck injuries can be much more painful than back injuries and can take longer to heal. That may also be a reason Gnocchi is refusing food. Just in case, you could try some suggestions given for neck injuries, such as softening hard kibble, raising food/water dishes. More info here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/cervical.htmIt will help us work together with you and avoid offering ideas that could cause harm or lead the discussion in the wrong direction delaying help for your dog — please share a bit more detail with us: ❖1 Neuropathic pain is not common but you should be aware of it. This kind of pain is abnormal, phantom pain sensations with severe spinal cord damage. Signs are obsessive licking of paw, leg, genitals, tail. Escalates to biting, life-threatening chewing off parts. Immediately put on an e-collar (or lengthwise folded towel around neck and duct taped closed) to prevent access to lower body. Contact vet immediately for Gabapentin or stronger Lyrica (pregabalin) for neuropathic pain. More info: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/neuropathy.pdf❖2 The hallmark component of conservative treatment is the very STRICT crate rest part (no PT, little movement). With little blood supply discs are much slower to form good scar tissue than it takes a blood rich broken bone to heal. Those weeks of a cast for a broken arm to heal is similar to the recovery suite being a kind of cast for the disc. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong scar tissue to form. Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite, the mattress and more! —> www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmSTRICT means: ◼︎no laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎no chiro therapy whys: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htm ◼︎no dragging or meandering at potty times. ◼︎no PT for conservative dogs during 8 weeks to heal disc ◼︎At home laser or acupuncture for severe neuro damage is best. Transports are always a risk to the disc of too much movement. Vet visits must be weighed risk vs. benefit for dogs with little to mild neuro diminishment. ❖3 As Julie mentioned, while on Prednisone, Gnocchi should be expressed every 2-3 hours as Prednisone causes increased thirst and urination. Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! www.dodgerslist.com/literature/slingwalk.jpg  ❖4 Currently can your dog move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk? ❖5 What Is your name? ❖6 Is the vet a general DVM or a specialist surgeon: ACVIM neurology or ACVS ortho? ☐ If there is great pain or severe neuro diminishment, acupuncture or laser light therapy can be be started right away as an adjunct to pain meds and to kick start nerve cell energy production. Options: Acupuncture vet who does home visits to avoid back moving during transports. For transport to necessary visits, pad out the recovery suite extra space with a rolled up towel/blanket to prevent body shifts during braking or cornering. CAUTIONS: ~~ Laser light therapy is contra-indicated with tumors which are detected via x-ray. ~~ During conservative treatment, anytime out of the recovery suite is a dangerous time for the healing disc. Movement of the back can increase a disc tear and escape of disc material into the spinal cord . For an animal with very mild neuro deficits, the risk of transporting to therapy has to be carefully weighed against what benefit is to be gained. www.ahvma.org/find-a-holistic-veterinarian/~~ Why Chiropractic is not recommended for IVDD dogs: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htmKnowledge is the power to fight the IVDD enemy and win!! The very best thing you can do for YOU, the caregiver, and for your dog is to get up to speed on IVDD soonest possible. Begin absorbing the must-have overall sense of meds, care and how the treatment works. Your dog will be depending on your ability to learn - excellent video series here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/theater.htm PRINT OUT this link and tape to your fridge: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm use the printout as your roadmap to avoid dangerous detours in your dog’s care make notes/highlight to keep yourself on track follow all the links in the next days to become the IVDD savvy pet parent your dog needs. Use the “search box” to easily locate topics over at our Main www.Dodgerslist.com website: www.dodgerslist.com/index/searchBOX.jpgPlease let us know what the vet says after speaking to them. Healing prayers for Gnocchi.
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Oct 20, 2019 11:30:23 GMT -7
Okay so existing meds were renewed to *Prednisone 5mg q12hr *Tramadol 25mg q8-12hrs (i am going to ask if she is ok with 50mg when needed when i speak with her directly tomororrow) *Robaxin 125mg q8-12hrs [WHICH?]*▲ Gabapentin 100mg q8hrs Still with the cbd oil and sulcrate [Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 29lbs crate rest started 10/15 too much movement at vet check up 10/16 walking good lost control of legs and bladder Oct 17 Prednisone as of 10/17 relapse: 5mgs 2x/day for ? days, then test taper for _pain / _neur0 Robaxin 125mgs 2x/day Which is actually given for each of the pain meds 8 or 12 hrs?gabapentin 100mgs ▲3x/day Tramadol 25mgs ▲3x/day sucralfate 500mgs 2x/day] I would like to know if you suggest giving the robaxin and tramadol together q8hrs? I have started doing this and he seems to be having a MUCH better day pain wise. I will request the pepcid tomorrow morning...although i have no doubt my vet will be on board. I could buy it over counter but i want to confirm dose with her. He has been eating well today with no signs of gi upset Also although still dribbling urine when picked up, he still kinda goes at will when brought outside. I then express just a few dribbles to make sure empty. Fingers crossed that he will be out of this pain stage soon and at least really well controlled until its over. I have no issue if he needs wheeles and a diaper forever (i mean of course i hope he gets better that way too) but i just cant stand seeing him in pain or uncomfortable. My husband is distraught and already built him a wheelechair although it will be a few months before he is allowed to use it. I read another story on here and im hopeing and praying he doesnt have "M"
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Oct 20, 2019 11:36:02 GMT -7
Sorry, Yes my name is Jenna
My vet is a general vet but has seen and treated quite a few cases of IVDD
No signs of self mutation at all
Thank you for the sling suggestion as i am almost 7 months pregnant -high risk
He is not using legs at all, he has no tail so im not sure about tlif he would be able to wag it.
Thank you
|
|
|
Post by Pauliana on Oct 20, 2019 11:56:17 GMT -7
Hi Jenna,
Yes it is ok to give the every 8 hour meds at the same time. Hopefully the ability to dose every 8 hours will help keep pain under control. Pain needs to be in control from dose to dose, so contact your Vet if Gnocchi has breakthrough pain between doses so she can adjust his medications until full comfort is achieved..
Let us know when Pepcid AC is onboard after you speak with his Vet.. Many vets have after hours contact numbers or they advise you to work with your local Vet ER service in case of emergency. Don't hesitate to take him to ER if he worsens if you can't reach your Vet..
I remember what this was like when Tyler lost his ability to walk back in 2013... It was a very scary time in more ways than one but he recovered well and is a very active senior dog now... There is every hope for Gnocchi..
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Oct 20, 2019 12:13:32 GMT -7
I am very glad that Gnocchi is having a better day pain wise. Pain will only slow the healing process.
Methocarbamol (Robaxin) and Tramadol can be given at the same time. Both these medicines travel through the body quickly so often need to be given every 8 hours to provide complete pain control. Gnocchi is not showing any signs of "M" so please put your mind at ease as to that. His pain meds may need to be adjusted until they provide complete relief within an hour and there is no pain between doses. As Marjorie ponted out we often see higher doses of tramadol prescribed for a 29 lb dog. If Gnocchi continues to show signs of pain let the vet know and discuss an adjustment of the meds. When you speak to the vet about the Pepcid, ask "Is there is a medical reason Gnocchi should not take Pepcid". When my dog Frankie was having a disc episode I first asked my vet if Frankie should take Pepcid. She said it wasn't necessary. But I had been reading Dodgerslist and the next time I asked if there was a medical reason Frankie should not take Pepcid. She said no and I bought the Pepcid at the drugstore store and gave it to him. I felt better knowing his stomach would be protected. The usual dose for a dog is .44 mgs per lb.
If Gnocchi seems to be able to go at will when outside he may have some bladder control. At this point, take him out often. Pred increases urination so it may need to be as often as every 2-3 hours. Then continue to express after he has gone outside.
In lieu of a tail, I have seen Frenchies wiggle their little butts in response to happy talk. So Gnocchi may do something like that.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
|
Post by PaulaM on Oct 20, 2019 17:27:50 GMT -7
Jenna, with all meds please tell which you are actually given doses at every 8 hrs or every 12 hrs. This helps us when posting to give you our best comments.
None of us are vets. We do not know your dogs complete history. The information we share is to give you a basis to discuss things and advocate for Gnocchi. It is the vet's job to prescribe and your job to advocate. If working with a vet is not productive in helping Gnocchi, then your job would be to find a vet with more comfort about IVDD. Let's hope you and your vet can put your heads together to get Gnocchi comfortable and get on with the busiiness of healing his disc and with time self healing his nerves
Basically for a 29 lbs dog your vet is way undermedicating for pain! -- Better to be agressive with pain meds and get pain in control. The Pred test taper date is the time to reduce/stop pain meds. Until then assume a painful disease IS indeed painful by dosing every 8 hrs promptly. -- Let us know for how long this 10/17 course of pred is for. Often the course are 7- or 14 days courses. The taper is to test if all the painful swelling is gone, thus pain meds are also either stopped or backed off on the begin of the taper date. --Tramadol for dogs is not the same as for people. In dogs the half life is very short. So call in and speak with your vet about using the maximum analgesic approach of every 8 hrs and 10mg/kg as per Plumbs and other authoritative veterianry sources cited for you. -- Pepcid AC supresses acids, Sucralfate gel coats the damaged areas of the mucus lining. Let us know when you have Pepcid AC on board if Gnocchi has no health issues. -- for a 29 lbs dogs the dose of prednisone is be used on the lower side of the anti-inflammatory range. Getting swelling around the spinal cord down as soon as possible is the goal with the upper anti-inflammatory range of pred dosing.
We hope to hear with an aggressive pain med approach, the pain is in control in one hr and thereafter right up to the next doses. Let us know how it is going with expressing every 2-3 hrs to keep him dry and being pain free.
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Oct 20, 2019 20:26:25 GMT -7
Sorry, to clarify the new pill bottle for tramadol and robaxin say q8-12hrs prn...i have been giving them q8hrs with the gabapentin.
I will update tomorrow when i speak to my vet regarding adding pepcid, and getting a bigger dose of tramadol and possibly prednisone. I will also clarify the new taper date for prednisone as we decided to hold off on the original planned date...
Thank you all for your help with this
[Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 29lbs crate rest started 10/15 too much movement at vet check up 10/16 walking good lost control of legs and bladder Oct 17 Prednisone as of 10/17 relapse: 5mgs 2x/day for ? days, then test taper for _pain / _neuro Robaxin 125mgs 3x/day gabapentin 100mgs ▲3x/day Tramadol 25mgs ▲3x/day sucralfate 500mgs 2x/day]
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Oct 21, 2019 7:05:44 GMT -7
Okay so now we are at ▲ Prednisone 7.5mg q12hrs (I am to check in with any change or in a week to discuss taper...she doesnt think he is ready yet but is getting very concerned about gi) ▲ Tramadol 50mg q8hrs Robaxin 125mg q8hrs Gabapentin 100mg q8hrs Sulcrate 500mg bid ✙ Pepcid 5mg q12hrs [Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 29lbs crate rest started 10/15 too much movement at vet check up 10/16 walking good lost control of legs and bladder Oct 17
Prednisone as of 10/17 relapse: 5mgs 2x/day for 4 days, as of 10/21: ▲7.5mgs for 7 days, then test for _pain/ _neuro Robaxin 125mgs 3x/day gabapentin 100mgs 3x/day Tramadol ▲50mgs 3x/day sucralfate 500mgs 2x/day ✙Pepcid AC 5mgs 2x/day]I am just praying my little guy turns around and shows any glimpse of improvement Still keeping him dry...although i have to find a better way/ place as the ground is so wet and cold in the mornings now and its heartbreaking that he has to drag through it a little to get going. He wont release with sling on.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
|
Post by PaulaM on Oct 21, 2019 7:39:01 GMT -7
Jenna, good job in presenting a successful advocacy on the pain meds and the ok for Pepcid AC! A 7-day course of Pred is appropriate. No one can know if all swelling is gone until there is a test for pain/neuro taper on 10/23. It is all guess work, the taper gives the answer. ---- Let us know which your vet wants on the 10/23 taper start: backing off of all pain meds or full stop of them. Your job is to monitor for any signs of pain surfacing... which pain masking pain meds would naturally hide. ---- Prednisone does not heal nerve cells that have died (loss of leg function, etc). It is a matter of tincture of time and Gnocchi's body healing abilities as to when that would happen. --- Pepcid AC to suppress acids is most effective at the 0.44mgs per lbs dose. Would be ok to round down to a whole 10mg famotidine tablet 2x/day if that is what you have. Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.html
Protection of the disc is paramount. Avoid allowing legs to drag as well as too many footsteps with the front legs. Are you using a figure 8 sling which most males prefer over the tummy type sling? If still does not like is it possible to hold him up by his thighs during the actuall potty process? Jenna, just caught that you are hi-risk pregnant. So the thigh thing is likley not doable for you. In fact what may be best is to have Gnocchi use an adjacent pee to his suite pee pad as easiest for you whether you are expressing (lack of bladder control) or if he is peeing (brain drected urine release) 1) DIY figure-8 sling: 2) DIY sweatshirt sling...can be used for front or the back legs. Use same concept with cut out leg holes in a long strip of towel: www.lyonpuffpetsit.com/htmlslp/sling.htmlThe improvement you would be looking for is all pain to be resolved by prednisone during the taper. I believe this page can seal in to your brain each of the 4 phases of healing that happen during the disc episode. What to expect, how long and what promotes that healing. Always good to have clarity on what is expected. The word "improvement" is too general a term to have much meaning when there are 4 different phases of healing. Here's a summary for you: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmClarification: Does he have bladder control? That is he does not leak on you when lifted nor are you finding any urine in his bedding? When outdoors, he sniffs an old pee spot and then his brain directs urine to be released there? If he has bladder control, you can try a pee pad adjacent to his crate. Place a urine scented piece of paper towel from his old urine or from other dog's down on the pee pad to inpsire Gnocchi. (Keep a stained piece in ziplock bag for next potty time) Praise him when he releases urine so he knows you approve of peeing in the house on the pee pad. If has no bladder control and leaks on you when lifted due to reflexes releasing urine, then you would be expressing his bladder in the house. Let us know what you observe re: bladder control.Is the pain fully in control now that all pain meds are 3x/day? If not strongly advocate for using the more typical higher end of the anti-inflammatory range for prednisone:
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Oct 21, 2019 8:44:22 GMT -7
Hi, Im heading out to pick up more meds now at vet. Just wanted to highlight in case it was missed that his prednisone was increased to 7.5mg q12hrs as well He ate breakfast this morning. Next dose of pain meds is 3pm so the 50mg tramadol will start then and the 7.5mg prednisone will start at 7pm tonight. He is dribbling when lifted, doesnt so much as sniff out a spot but goes as he is moving about the backyard. Jenna
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Oct 21, 2019 11:35:11 GMT -7
Thank you for updating on the meds. I hope the change in the dosage will allow Gnocchi to rest and heal in comfort.
Other than dribbling when picked up does it seem to you as if he is trying to hold it until he gets outside or is it dribble all the way? If it appears that after the initial dribble he is trying to hold it that is a step towards bladder control. You still need to do an express check after he goes because he may not be able to get it all out.
Some months after my dog Frankie's disk episode when he was able to walk and had bladder control he was doing something similar to Gnocchi. He waited until he was outside, found a spot, peeded a bit and then continued to walk on peeing as he went. He did this for the longest time. But Gnocchi is still on crate rest and his footsteps during potty time should be kept to a bare minimum.
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Oct 21, 2019 12:30:41 GMT -7
Came home to complete bladder loss Bedding was wet and as soon as i picked him up he was going. I have to say, I am feeling very discouraged today. Although my vet is very supportive and on board she did not sound to hopeful about the situation. Maybe I'm reading too far into it....I hope. Do you have any similar stories on here you could direct me to to read?
|
|
|
Post by Romy & Frankie on Oct 21, 2019 12:53:52 GMT -7
I am pretty sure he did not have bladder control before, so I don't think you should consider it an increase in symptoms and get discouraged. I think the best thing to do is express him while in the house. Are you comfortable with expressing at this point? It took me a while to become good at expressing my dog Frankie's bladder. With practice I learned and was able to do it until he regained bladder control.
It is very early in Gnocchi's healing process to make any kinds of predictions for the future. Nerve healing can take a long time. One thing I do know is many dogs have recovered with the conservative treatment of strict crate rest and meds.
I know the timing of this could not be worse because of your pregnancy. But after a little while you will get down to a sort of routine and caring for him will become much easier. So much healing can still take place. There are a number of success stories on the home page of the dodgerslist.com version of this site. The ones with the "c" at the end were treated conservatively. Not every one of the success stories are about a dog that regained walking ability but many are. What they all have in common is the dog is living a full and happy life. Success Stories on the main Dodgerslist.com website: www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory.htm
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Oct 21, 2019 15:02:55 GMT -7
Jenna, as I mentioned earlier, a year ago my Perry was diagnosed with IVDD.
His first episode he was paralyzed in his back legs within 24 hours of his diagnosis.
Today he is a happy boy who runs around and is having a great life.
Every dog is different in how they heal.
But there is hope. You are doing everything right to help Gnocchi.
Take it one step at a time. If you're interested his story is under Julie's Perry.
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Oct 24, 2019 9:41:55 GMT -7
So just an update... Yesterday I went to change Gnocchi's water and left the cage door open, I turn around and theres my Gnocchi bum staring at me like nothings wrong (he had dragged himself over). Now obviously i know thats not allowed and i have to be diligent about closing pen door now but i think he is feeling more himself!! Now this morning he had no dribbles then well sling walking on potty break he stood for a split second!!!! My neighbors must think im crazy because i was screaming in celebration out back lol I have been questioning this journey a lot more so because of my pregnancy and how hard its been and that im not supposed to be lifting etc. But could this be a very hopeful sign of whats to come??
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
|
Post by PaulaM on Oct 24, 2019 10:18:05 GMT -7
Jenna, just to make sure on a couple of things.
---sling walking at potty. Do you mean taking only the very fewest of footsteps (not walkin around) with the support of the sling? Strict rest is all about limiting movement of the back/neck.
-- Did you see Gnocchi raise himself up into a stand? Or are you reporting he was standing and could remain standing for a split second?
-- Did you observe Gnocchi sniff an old pee spot, and then his brain sent a message to release urine?
Hope to hear no hint of pain surfacing with hopefully dodging the bullet with that escape yesterday.
Jenna, there is plenty to be hopeful about Gnocchi! It is still quite early in the nerve healing department. As we learn more about your observations we'll be able to comment better. Do know the disc, which you can't see, is healing. Prednisone at a higher dose is also working to get that swelling that can compress the cord resolved. The taper test scheduled for 10/28 will let you and the vet know how things are going, if another course of pred is needed or not.
|
|
|
Post by Dorthia & Puppy on Oct 26, 2019 3:45:58 GMT -7
I can’t offer advice, as you have the best possible help right now. I can tell you not to lose hope. My Stella could hardly walk a few months ago. She couldn’t even take herself out to go potty. Now she runs around everywhere loving life. Things will get better with time.
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Oct 26, 2019 15:18:05 GMT -7
Thank you Dorthia for you encouraging words. Sometimes a little hope makes things much more positive. As for the other previous questions/comments...yes his sling walking steps at potty time are very limited. Gnocchi has not dribbled in the house for two days, although not much of a sniffer in the back yard, he does seem to release at his own will once in a good spot- i am monitoring this progress. If stood up, Gnocchi will hold/balance the stand for a few seconds, also now, although not nearly fully, i have seen him lift his back end in an attempt to reach a standing position. The challange at this moment is that he HATES being in his crate and goes through whimpering and barking periods when he feels not included enough i try to move his crate around the house if im going to be in a room for awhile. I am nervous to see what the upcoming taper does. I am going to speak to the vet Monday but i am just wondering- are the pain pills usually tapered at same time at prednisone? Are the dosages usually reduced at each medication time or are medication times more spread out with same dosage? Just wanting to prepare for Monday mornings conversation with vet. Thank you
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
|
Post by Marjorie on Oct 27, 2019 5:32:06 GMT -7
The fact that you've seen Gnocchi lift up his back end in an attempt to stand and that he appears to have bladder control are truly wonderful signs of nerve healing, Jenna! So glad to hear it. Yes, when the taper of the Prednisone starts, the pain meds should also taper or preferably stopped completely. If pain meds are on board during the taper of the Prednisone, they would mask any sign of pain that you will need to see. Pain means there is still swelling pressing on the nerves of the spine and still a need for all meds for a bit longer, maybe another 7 days. Should you see any sign of pain return at any time during the taper of the Prednisone, you would need to immediately alert your vet so Gnocchi could be returned to the original dosages of all meds. When you speak to the vet on Monday, be sure to get a Plan B in place - what he wants you to do should pain return - so you know what to do over a weekend or a holiday if Gnocchi should show pain. Each vet tapers off of Prednisone differently, whether it's to gradually decrease the dosage or to start skipping a dose. More info on the inflammation phase of IVDD for your review: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmIt's best to keep the dosage of Pepcid AC the same for as long as Gnocchi is on any dose of Prednisone so do speak to the vet about that also. In the next post, I'll give some tips on calming Gnocchi during crate rest.
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
|
Post by Marjorie on Oct 27, 2019 5:34:09 GMT -7
Try to keep a happy voice and face around Gnocchi. Dogs are very sensitive and pick up on our feelings very easily. Tell him everything's OK and that he's getting better every day. And you believe it, too! Here are some tips to help calm your dog in the crate. If these do not help, it may be necessary to have the vet prescribe a mild sedative. To calm your dog in the crate, it would be a good idea to cover the top with a towel. That should mellow him. It also creates a den like feeling that dogs love. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price. Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Dogs: Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/us/Products/ADAPTIL-Calm-Home-Diffuser with dog pheromones Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. 3) Bach's Rescue Remedy is a liquid 5-herb combo to help with relaxation (Star of Bethlehem – Orithogalum umbellatum, Rock Rose – Helianthemum, Cherry Plum – Prunus cerasifera, Impatiens – Impatiens gladulifera, Clematis – Clematis vitalba) Be aware you might be inadvertently training for unwanted behavior. To dogs rewards are: food, looking at them, talking to them, eye contact, approaching the crate, petting. So anytime you see unwanted behavior ignore it, turn your back, leave the room if you have to. Preferable is to start teaching what you do want before there is too much practice in doing the unwanted behavior. Anytime your dog is sitting or lying down quietly, give a reward. Soon your dog will see they get rewards for four feet on the floor, quietly sitting, etc. Consider some of these ideas: -- Many members have found a pet stroller to solve the whining problem because the stroller can be wheeled from room to room as you go about your activities. Pet strollers, however, should only be used when you are directly supervising. More details on strollers: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htm--Caster wheels can be added to a wire crate so the crate can be wheeled from one room to the next so your dog can stay with you. -- Put a garment you have been wearing and have not washed in the crate. -- Nan Arthur, CDBC, CPDT, KPACTP writes: "According to the book, Stress in Dogs, by Martina Scholz & Clarissa von Reinhardt, the most well-behaved dogs get 17 or more hours of rest and sleep per day. Teaching self-calming exercises can also help your dog to relax more. You can make something as simple as eye contact a very rewarding behavior that also acts as a way for your dog to “ask permission” when he wants something. When dogs have a focus and an understanding about how to behave to get what they want, they are much calmer overall. To do this, each time your dog looks at you, say, something like, “Yes!” or use a clicker to mark the second he looks at you, and then give your dog a high-value food reward. Wait for your dog to look up at you again, say, “Yes,” and reward again. Do this exercise 10 or so times and then say, “All done,” and put the treats away. Come back later and do it again until you can see that your dog is really starting to make automatic eye contact in hopes you will say, “Yes,” again and give him his reward. " [NOTE: treats should be subtracted from the normal daily kibble ration so as not to gain weight during crate rest.] wholedogtraining.com/images/stories/Are_all_dogs_trainable.pdf -- If your dog won’t get too excited seeing what’s happening outside, during the day try putting the crate on the coffee table or the dining room table so there will be a view out a window and a better perspective on what is going on in the house from on high. -- Play classical music or one of the wildlife TV shows. -- Fill a Kong with soft dog food and freeze. Put part of the dog's total daily dinner kibble in the Kong to lengthen time to consume dinner. Good low cal snacks are carrots, apples, or frozen green beans, licking a frozen low sodium broth ice cube. Good thick low salt/no fat chicken broth is full of cartilage-building proteins and amino acids. Freeze it up into cubes for easy access as you need it. Fun and keeps the body hydrated: place cubes in a bowl for licking. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htm
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Oct 27, 2019 10:36:33 GMT -7
Hello, Thank you so much for all of the great ideas to help Gnocchi with his crate time! I really appreciate it. Also for the info on the prednisone taper. I am so scared to see if pain returns but now fully understand why the meds would be stopped as to see if an issue is being masked. I will keep everyone updated on how the taper goes... Thank you Jenna
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Oct 27, 2019 11:52:24 GMT -7
Just make sure if during the taper you see signs of pain there's a plan B of having more steroids and pain meds available so you can restart if necessary.
If it's after hours or on a weekend you don't want an emergency vet visit and fee to get meds.
It's not uncommon for dogs to try to taper two or even three times before they're ready.
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Nov 7, 2019 16:25:12 GMT -7
A little update on my Gnocchi bum... Gnocchi is now off of the robaxet, gabapentin, and tramadol (we weaned him) with no signs of pain!! He is currently at 5mg of prednisone every other day (will go down to 2.5mg every other day on monday). He still takes the pepcid. And i give him sulcrate on prednisone mornings to help his tummy. [Moderator's Note. Please do not edit 29lbs crate rest started 10/15 too much movement at vet check up 10/16 walking good lost control of legs and bladder Oct 17 Prednisone as of 10/17 relapse: 5mgs 2x/day for 4 days, as of 10/21: ▲7.5mgs for 7 days, then 10/28 test for _pain/ _neuro Pepcid AC 5mgs 2x/day sucralfate 500mgs 1x/day]
He is eating and drinking very well and maintains bladder and bowel control which makes it a lot easier for me with being pregnant. He is able to wobble walk (maybe spinal walk??) Without the sling when out for potty. We did have one set back where i was in hospital for 2 days and i found out my sister thought she was doing him a favour by letting him out of his crate all day because he was "calmer and happier" Fortunately, no signs of a flare up or pain from that occurance! Fingers crossed we stay on this positive track!
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
|
Post by PaulaM on Nov 7, 2019 16:42:20 GMT -7
Thanks, Jenna for sharing such a good report. Fingers crossed that no pain will surface as the last conclusive pred taper test dose is given. By definition, a dog who has bladder control has deep pain sensation— then would have to also be walking via brain direction and not via reflexes (spinal walking). Some dogs who have no deep pain sensation may be able to teach themselves to spinal walk via crossed extensor reflexes. Glad to hear you are doing ok is caring for Gnocchi as the due date gets closer. Keeping his footsteps to only the very minimal footsteps (avoid walking) is how his disc will heal. Has you sister seen the animated video ciip of what being unnecesarily out of the suite might do to the spinal cord? Thank goodness his disc was not re-damaged and the need to start from square one.
|
|
|
Post by Jenna & Gnocchi on Dec 15, 2019 11:15:57 GMT -7
Well yesterday was an amazing day! It was Gnocchi's 5th birthday and he has been released from confinement Also, we received the Gingerlead we won and it has been an immense help and makes things much easier (and safer for me with being pregnant...still lol). Gnocchi has been off all medications for about a month, with the exception of the very odd dose of CBD oil to help calm him in his cage when there is lots of company for example. He continues to maintain control of bowel and bladder. He is wobble walking very well! I am soooo beyond happy for him and so appreciative of all your help especially with helping me ensure his medications were adjusted correctly. The beginning was so rough and I was so uncertain of his future especially with everyone who is not aware of the disease telling me I was mean not to put him down. Your reassurance meant the world. I hope we do not encounter this again in the future, but if we do we are much better prepared. Thank you all so much again!
|
|
|
Post by Julie & Perry on Dec 15, 2019 11:20:44 GMT -7
Happy birthday Gnocchi!! I'm so happy for you both. I'm doing my Snoopy happy dance!
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
|
Post by Marjorie on Dec 15, 2019 12:05:59 GMT -7
Congratulations Jenna and Gnocchi on completing all 8 weeks of strict crate rest! So happy that all has gone so well. Do take it very slow, Jenna. Gnocchi's strength and stamina need to be gradually built up again after so long on strict crate rest. If too much movement is allowed too quickly and should you see any pain, it would be difficult to determine whether the pain is from a new disc problem or from sore muscles. I found the schedule on the following page to be very helpful in gradually reintroducing my Jeremy to movement again following his conservative care: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmAlso on that page is a list of never-again activities, such as no more stairs, no more jumping, etc.We love it when members have a mind to pay forward and help another. We invite you to hop on to our educational bandwagon team in any way that makes you happy. Education about disc disease is our number one mission! We wish we did not have to hear of another dog that was put to sleep because of disc disease nor one denied the correct principles of crate rest to help them heal.
--- You've been there, and are doing it....if you see another member on the Forum needing support or information share what you know to be true or point them to one of our many IVDD articles. The "search box" on each page makes quick work to find the right helpful link: www.dodgerslist.com/-- "Share" our FB/twitter/ posts to widen the reach of IVDD knowledge www.facebook.com/Dodgerslist twitter.com/DodgersList-- Hand carry our literature and introduce us to your vet. When in conversation at the grocery store line or wherever you meet breeds most prone to IVDD (Dachshunds, Beagles, Poodles, Spaniels, Shih Tzus, Pekingese, and Chihuahuas) to give out our little cards. Ask Linda to send you our free packet: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/litorder.htm
-- We have a store where you might find something you absolutely need! Our earnings go to paying for our webpage and literature to hand out. www.dodgerslist.com/store.htm-- Don't forget to add a photo to the gallery and 1-2 sentences. Give inspiration to others just starting a scary IVDD journey. Directions to u/l here: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/2262/put-dodgerslist-photo-gallery-calendarPrayers for many years of good health ahead for Gnocchi and for the new addition to your family. Blessings to you all.
|
|