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Post by Sarah & Ramsay on Aug 20, 2019 0:07:23 GMT -7
Well, third time's a charm for Minnie, I hope, as this is her third bout of IVDD. She woke up shivering and in pain this morning after gleefully running all over a large grass lawn yesterday. I have a feeling she over did it. Poor thing. Took her to the "new" vet at the office and the vet seemed a bit nonchalant about the whole thing, which really annoyed me. I told her this was Minnie's third episode of IVDD and needed rimadyl, tramadol, etc. asap. She gave Minnie: Rimadyl as of 8/19 : 12.5mg 2x/day I told her Minnie would likely need something else and asked about adding tramadol. She told me there are recent studies that say tramadol is proving to not be effective as an analgesic in dogs and said I could add it, but she didn't recommend it. I skeptically did some research when I got home and she was right. There are a number of recent studies that say tramadol is proving ineffective at helping pain in dogs. BUT, I have some tramadol at home from Minnies last IVDD bout, so just to be safe, I started her on that, too: Tramadol as of 8/19: 25mg, 2-3x/day [Moderator's note: please do not edit 9lbs Rimadyl as of 8/19: 12.5mg 2x/day for 14 days; Sep 2 stop to test for _pain/ _neuro Tramadol 25mg 3x/day Gabapentin ?mg/mL: ?mg (?mL) ?x/day no stomach protection on board!]Then I asked the vet if Minnie could also have gabapentin. She is ordering it from the compound pharmacy and it will be ready tomorrow (8/20).In the meantime, I can tell Minnie is in a lot of pain and am very frustrated. I have some old gabapentin (25mg pills) from 2013 for my last dog, but I am thinking it's probably not good to give them to her. I just hate seeing her so miserable. For now, Minnie is tucked in the crate under some blankies. She didn't want to potty this evening, so that is a bummer. I can tell it probably hurts to squat. Poor girly. Thanks in advance for your help and support!
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Aug 20, 2019 5:54:21 GMT -7
I'm so sorry to hear that Minnie is having her third disc problem, Sarah. If Minnie is still in a lot of pain after giving the Tramadol, that needs to be addressed today rather than wait until tomorrow for the compounded Gabapentin. Check with the vet if it's OK to give the Gabapentin pills that you have. Advocate for Methocarbamol which works on the pain of muscle spasms. Be sure to let the vet know that you decided to go ahead with giving Tramadol. We have also read the studies about Tramadol but we have seen dogs in pain have their pain stop when given Tramadol so we still do recommend it as a general pain med. Tramadol has a short half life so be sure to give it every 8 hours (3x/day). It often takes all three pain meds - Tramadol, Gabapentin and Methocarbamol - to get the pain of IVDD under control. It is most important that a stomach protector be given since Minnie is on an anti-inflammatory - Rimadyl. Ask if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn't need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a "no health" issues answer,then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine). Doxie weight dogs: 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) every 12 hours. NOTE: Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.html canigivemydog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/can-i-give-my-dog-pepcid-ac-300x300.jpgFor how many days does the vet want you to give Rimadyl?It sounds like you caught this disc problem early and it's a mild one with the only symptom being pain. Your main goal today is to get that pain under control so Minnie can heal in comfort. Please let us know what the vet says after speaking to her this morning. Healing prayers for Minnie.
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Post by Sarah & Ramsay on Aug 20, 2019 9:17:04 GMT -7
Thanks for your help. Minnie is worse this morning. She can't stand to potty and hasn't gone since yesterday. She is in a ton of pain. I left a message with the vet and am still waiting for her to call me back. Last night I found some methocarbomol from Minnie's last bout of IVDD, so I started giving her: ✙methocarbomol 200 mg 3x day (she's currently on her second dose) Minnie weighs 9 pounds. Rimadyl as of 8/19: 12.5mg 2x/day for 14 days then stop to test for pain Tramadol 25mg 3x/day Methocarbamol 200 mg 3x/day Gabapentin ??mg ??x/day (waiting for this to be ready at the pharmacy then I'll know the dosage) [Moderator's note: please do not edit 9lbs Rimadyl as of 8/19: 12.5mg 2x/day for 14 days; Sep 2 stop to test for _pain/ _neuro Tramadol 25mg 3x/day ✙methocarbomol 200mg 3x day Gabapentin ?mg/mL: ?mg (?mL) ?x/day still watiing for compounding no stomach protection on board!]
Fortunately I am home from work the next couple weeks (thank God) so I'll be able to keep a close eye on her throughout the day. Thank you!
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Post by Julie & Perry on Aug 20, 2019 13:06:11 GMT -7
Sarah, can you possibly get Minnie to an emergency hospital vet? Or call back your vet and explain this is an emergency! This situation can't wait. Sending you my prayers.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Aug 20, 2019 13:34:18 GMT -7
I am sorry that Minnie is in a lot of pain. If her neuro functions are decreasing (today she can't stand) and she is in pain she must get veterinary attention. You can keep calling. Be polite but persistent. A dog should not have to be in pain and losing neuro function is serious. Nerves take a long time to heal and any function lost could come back slowly. If your vet doesn't return your calls today, is there an emergency vet you can take her to? Usually we try to avoid transporting a dog during an IVDD episode but I think you should expect a same day callback from your vet.
Not being able to stand and not urinating since yesterday may mean she has lost bladder control. It could also mean that she is reluctant to empty her bladder because of pain. Can you carry her to the potty spot and support her legs and see if she can urinate? If not, you can try again after she has had the gabapentin. If her reluctance to urinate is caused by pain the gabapentin may make her more comfortable.. When our dogs lose bladder control and cannot empty the bladder by themselves we have to help them by expressing. When we express we put pressure on the bladder greater than the strength of the urinary sphincter to push the urine out. We have some info here about expressing:
If you must express Minnie you will need a hands-on lesson from your vet. Expressing is a skill and will be learned with practice.
Were you able to get the Pepcid to protect her stomach?
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Post by Sarah & Ramsay on Aug 20, 2019 14:19:16 GMT -7
Hi everyone,
I was finally able to speak with the vet who helped us last time Minnie had an episode. She is great and very understanding and more helpful. She prescribed Minnie the methocarbamol and gabapentin and I'm about to go pick those up and get her on them asap.
Minnie's pain seems to be a little better and she is resting as comfortably as she can in the crate. She can stand, but is just not pottying. As you mentioned, hopefully the gabapentin will help her pee! The vet said to call her back if she hasn't gone by tonight.
Yes, adding in the ✙pepcid ac. I'll let you know her gabapentin dose as soon as I pick it up!
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 9lbs Rimadyl as of 8/19: 12.5mg 2x/day for 14 days; Sep 2 stop to test for _pain/ _neuro Tramadol 25mg 3x/day ✙methocarbomol 200mg 3x/day Gabapentin ?mg/mL: ?mg (?mL) ?x/day still watiing for compounding Pepcid AC ? mgs ?x/day ] thanks!
PS Is there a way to get an email alert when someone comments on my posts? Thanks!
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Aug 20, 2019 14:33:19 GMT -7
Very glad you were able to speak with the vet. Wonderful that Minnie is able to stand now. I hope the additional medication with make Minnie comfortable. If not, let the vet know. Vets have many ways to combat pain. Pain will only slow the healing process. Once she feels more comfortable she may be able to urinate if carried to an old potty spot. If Minnie still cannot urinate, she will likely need to be expressed. The vet can show you how to do this. It seems tricky at first but after a while you get the hang of it.
To bookmark a thread to receive email updates when a reply is posted. Select your preferences at profile > edit profile > notifications Bookmark the post you are viewing with the rectangle ACTIONS button www.dodgerslist.com/forumads/fadBOOKMARK.jpg
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Post by Sarah & Ramsay on Sept 17, 2019 14:20:06 GMT -7
Hi everyone!
My apologies for being MIA. Minnie is healing nicely in the crate, thank God. No longer in pain and just biding her time until she can get the heck out of jail. After being on a concoction of rimadyl, methocarbamol, gabapentin, and tramadol, the vet currently has her reduced to:
Gabapentin 50mg 2x day Rimadyl 12.5 mg 2x day
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 9lbs Rimadyl as of 8/19: 12.5mg 2x/day for 14 days; Sep 2 stop to test for _pain/ _neuro as of date? 2nd course: for ? days Gabapentin ?mg/mL: 50mg (?mL) 2x/day NOT on Pepcid AC ? ]
I have also supplemented the medication with high quality CBD oil and "Canine Musculoskeletal Support" powder by Standard Process. The latter was highly recommended by the veterinary compound pharmacist. It has all sorts of crazy stuff in it, but the pharmacist swears by it and said they sell out each week. (https://www.standardprocess.com/Products/Veterinary-Formulas/Canine-Musculoskeletal-Support#.XYFMCZOpHOQ)
Probably the main issue right now is that she is depressed and really bored. She is going bananas in there and jumping around a lot, especially when my bf's young kids come over. I've tried putting a blanket on the top of the crate so she can't see out the top, but it doesn't matter. She just whines for hours. Last year the vet at UC Davis gave us some trazadone to calm her down, which I've given her twice. I just don't like giving it to her. I've also tried frozen kongs with peanut butter and bully sticks. But she quickly gulps them down and goes back to whining.
Question: I have been carrying her out to potty and she pulls and tries to take me on a walk. I realize this isn't good. So I carry her around outside for about 5-10 minutes so she can get some sun on her face and fresh air. Do you think it would be okay if I put her in the doggy sling and took her with me when I walk our other dog or do you think it would be bad for her back?
Thanks again for everything!
Best, Sarah
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Sept 17, 2019 14:51:54 GMT -7
I am glad to hear that Minnie is healing nicely. How long has she been on the Rimadyl? Was there a test for pain stop on Sept 2? Some things that may help keep Minnie happier in the crate; Place the crate near a window with a view, on the coffee table in front of couch where you sit. Place the crate so the dog will be in the middle of family activities, near your bed at night. Secure crate to a flat moving dolly (or put casters on plywood) to easily move the crate room to room. Can you move Minnie into another room when young kids come over? Carrying Minnie around could result in too much movement. This is also true for sling walking. You may want to invest in a stroller and then you can take Minnie all over in the house in the safely of the stroller. The stroller should not be used outside during the crate rest period. Of course, never leave her unattended in it. We have some info on strollers here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htmOne thing to keep in mind when giving supplements is the possibility of interaction with the prescription meds Minnie is taking. I know you are reluctant to give trazadone but if she needs it at times I think you should give it to her. Becoming too excited in the crate can be bad for her back. The crate rest period is really about keeping the dogs as inactive as possible while the disk heals.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 17, 2019 18:48:59 GMT -7
Sarah, a few questions so we can best comment with understanding about the Rimadyl use?
What date did the 2nd course of Rimadyl start (what date after the 1st course ended on Sep 2)? Or on Sep 2 was there pain?
Is she now on a stomach protector (Pepcid AC)?
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Post by Sarah & Ramsay on Sept 19, 2019 16:42:37 GMT -7
Minnie has been on rimadyl ongoing since August 19. Vet wanted to keep her on it [Rimadyl] a couple more weeks until the inflammation is completely gone. She has not tested for pain as I've been very hesitant to take her out to the vet for fear she'll hurt herself more. Just so I understand, is there a reason she should not be on it?
[Moderator's note: please do not edit 9lbs Rimadyl as of 8/19: 12.5mg 2x/day for 32 days; date? of test stop for _pain/ _neuro Gabapentin ?mg/mL: ?mg (?mL) ?x/day no stomach protection on board!]
Good idea regarding the casters on plywood for the crate! I tried putting her in the other room when the kids came over and she HOWLED and made awful noises until I came back and took her out. I tried this a couple times. So that's not going to work. Curious why I shouldn't take her outside in the stroller if I get one?
Thanks! Sarah
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 19, 2019 19:22:30 GMT -7
Sarah, it is good for you to know how an anti-inflammatory work during a disc episode. This allows you to voice concerns when needed, advocate for things when needed. I encourage you to read the info on anti-inflammatory drugs and how they are used for a disc episode. 1) Good home work to have under your belt. The link: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm 2) Read what the FDA say about non-steroid anti-inflammatory like Rimadyl, what to monitor for and what action to take at once if you see adverse (serious) side effects: www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/animal-health-literacy/treating-pain-your-dogAfter reading, now you can see why we are very confused about reducing pain meds, continued Rimadyl use now 32 days without knowing if there might still be pain that needs to to be addressed. No one wants a dog on Rimadyl one bit longer than necessary. All anti-inflammatory drugs carry some serious side effects. When needed the benefit of resolving painful swelling in the spinal cord area is well worth the risk. IF all pain were actually to be gone by the usual 7-30 days of Rimadyl, then to continue use just means all that remains is being exposed to serious side effects of Rimadyl. How many courses of Rimadyl are needed? If you had reported any signs of pain to the vet, that would naturally be a sound reason to extend use of Rimadyl. That is for the vet to RX another course--- maybe a 7- or 14-day course then a Rimadylstop test to verify that no pain surfaces. No pain observed prior to test stop date, then Rimadyl test stop proceeds If you did not report pain to the vet, then on SEP 2 the stop of Rimadyl and the all the pain meds that mask pain would have been stopped. At home your job would be to monitor for any hint of pain surfacing that would signal the need for more Rimadyl. SIGNS OF PAIN:
◻︎ shivering-trembling ◻︎ yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎ slow to move ◻︎ tight tense tummy ◻︎ arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎ head held high or nose to the ground. ◻︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ◻︎ slow or reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎ looks up with just eyes and does not move head and neck easily. ◻︎ not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain ◻︎ holds front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ◻︎ not their normal perky selves Concerns: -- 32 days on Rimadyl and there has been no stomach protection for the extra acids this drug causes! What is the stumbling block to getting 5mgs of Pepcid AC (famotidine) twice a day for Minnie? -- It very typically takes in the range of 7 - 30 days for Rimadyl to get rid of painful swelling. At the test stop of Rimadyl, all pain med are stopped to give you at home a clear picture. Very, confusing why no Rimadyl test stop. Just tramadol and methocarbamol stopped. How does anyone know for sure if all pain is gone? Have you observed any signs of pain? -- All vet visits need to be very carefully weighed for potential disc damage risk of too much movement during a transport to a vet visit. Vets who know IVDD, understand the risk and are ok with taking a phone update to adjust meds and that sort of thing. -- Getting the disc to heal is all about limited movement of the back. There should be no opportunity for Minnie to pull on a leash. Kids should be kept away from your patient! No other dogs should be permitted out with her at potty breaks or any other time. Focus should always be on Minnie's needs and protection. -- A stroller would be ok to use inside the house where there are smooth floors, to keep her near you as you move about the house. Or on the deck to get some sunshine as the stroller is beside you on the deck. Using the stroller outdoors over bumpy areas is not a good idea for the back. Let us know the date the Rimadyl Test STOP for pain will be taking place. Will gabapentin be stopped or backed off to provide you with optimal ability to observed for any hint of pain? What about Pepcid AC to suppress stomach acids while on Rimadyl? Look forward to hearing if you were successful in advocating for a Rimadyl TEST STOP to verify if any Rimadyl is needed any longer.
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Post by Sarah & Ramsay on Sept 20, 2019 11:44:05 GMT -7
Hi there,
Thanks for the advice! Just talked to the vet and we’re going to stop all meds and see how Minnie does. I’ll keep you all posted!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Sept 20, 2019 17:27:37 GMT -7
Sarah, good job in absorbing information about anti-inflammatories and being able to present and discuss things with your vet. Got fingers crossed the stop of meds that mask pain and the Rimadyl stop will reveal there is no pain to be found. Then all that would remain is to finish the remainder of crate rest for the purpose of allowing the disc itself to heal (form secure scar tissue).
Please keep us posted on this test.
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Post by Sarah & Ramsay on Oct 6, 2019 12:07:08 GMT -7
Minnie is finally out of the crate [graduation day is Oct 14] and healed. Fingers crossed that we don't have to go through this again. Thanks to everyone for your help!!
We exchanged the doggie stairs for a doggie ramp for the couch. Hoping this will be better for her back. The hardest part is stopping her from jumping off the couch despite the ramp being there. She is such a jumping bean.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Oct 6, 2019 15:49:34 GMT -7
I have a ramp for my bed and put a folding fireplace screen along the ramp to prevent jumping.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 6, 2019 19:08:33 GMT -7
Sarah, don't jump the gun. Graduation day of completing 8 weeks of crate rest to get the disc to heal happens on OCT 14th. So you can be prepared for a gradual introduction back to physical activity in advance: Let us know you plan for a slow, gradual easing back into more normal activity at graduation. The idea is to gradually give more freedom under controlled conditions. Not free reign of the house and yard immediately! Increasing activity over about a month's time following the end of crate rest makes sure if you would see pain, you'd be able to rule out there had been no overduing muscles and it may be disc related. Also check out how to teach four paws on the floor, and how to train for using a ramp. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/AfterCrateRest.htmIdeas for furniture blockers: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/protectback.htm
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Post by Sarah & Ramsay on Oct 7, 2019 10:11:56 GMT -7
Thank you so much. She loves to jump up as though she's on a pogo stick, so I'll definitely need to train her not to do that. Thank you!!
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