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Post by Christine & Waffles on Mar 11, 2019 21:11:19 GMT -7
Hello, hope I do this right!
Waffles seemed to pull something twice in two weeks, so I took him to the vet with concerns he slipped a disc. My vet did xrays, said he had lumbosacral syndrome and told me to start laser therapy. At the time I expressed concern that that area didn't seem to bother him but his ribcage area did and I was told I might be picking him up wrong. I asked about lifestyle changes or crate rest and was told none needed.
That was Monday [date?]. They gave me Novox 25mg 1x per 24 hours and he had a laser therapy appointment. Tuesday night he was a really happy guy. Wednesday He got out of his crate wrong and I was unhappy with his pain level so I called and they gave me a prescription for Codeine. A few hours later he lost partial function in his back legs so they told me to take him to the emergency vet.
He had an MRI which revealed a herniated disc at T11-12 which was right sided. His papers state "type I IVDD at T11-12". An emergency hemilaminectomy [what date?] was performed. He is currently on crate rest, which is difficult as he has separation anxiety and nothing seems to sedate him and I'm uncomfortable continually upping meds. He's currently on Gabapentin every 12 hours (oral solution 1ml) and trazadone as needed for sedation (50mg tablets, we've been advised to try 1 1/12 every 8-12 hours after 1/2 did not sedate and 1 did not, either; 1 1/2 doesn't do much, frankly).
[Moderator's note: please do not edit
13-14 lb
date of surgery?
Novox as of 2/25: 25mg 1x/day stopped post op?
Codeine ?mg ?x/day
Gabapentin ?mgs in 1 mlL?: ? mgs 2x/day
Trazadone as needed
No stomach protection added with Norvox!]
He retained bladder and bowel function and is wobbly in his back legs, his right one more so, but doing pretty well on them. He can wag his tail. He is 5 years old (6 in May), a 13-14lb dachshund. He is eating and drinking, though his elimination is a bit off schedule and not as frequent. His pain seems controlled since I requested a refill of his Gabapentin, although his pain tolerance is insane so it is always hard to tell.
The surgeon has recommended 4-6 weeks rest (should we do 8?) and at home PT. We are doing crate rest but we've sort of "compromised". I put a body pillow in front of his crate and he rests on it in the door of the crate as it is the only way to make him sit down (he's normally crated with our other dog). They even discharged him from the hospital the next day after surgery because he gets himself so worked up. He tries to wander too much when I take him out but if he doesn't he will refuse to go and pee in his crate.
I'd love advice on: if it sounds like I need a new vet, how to make rest easier (this dog is too stubborn to even sedate), overall lifestyle changes moving forward (definitely getting a ramp), and anything else.
Thanks for reading my novel!
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Mary & Mila
Helpful Member 
FEMALE— DACHSHUND
Posts: 218 
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Post by Mary & Mila on Mar 12, 2019 3:36:04 GMT -7
Hello Christine, Welcome to Dodgerslist, sorry to read about what has happened to waffles. You've come to the right place for help  Waffles is thankfully over surgery now and on his way to recovery, his tail wag is a great sign, great too that he has his appetite, I'll post a link showing you how to control his wobbly back legs when out to potty. I'm just going to go over a few basics with you and you might add some more info - for when one of our moderators logs on, that will be a great help. PainGetting his pain under control is very important to allow the healing process began. Be aware of the following warning signs, listed below and if you see them please call your vet, he/she may need to adjust the timing of meds, they are usually given every 8 hours over a 24 hr period, to ensure no breakthrough of pain. Signs of painIs there still currently pain?
☐Shivering, trembling
☐Yelping when picked up or moved
☐Reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move
☐Tight tense tummy
☐Can’t find a comfortable position
☐Arched back
☐ Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight
☐head held high or nose to the ground
☐Not their normal perky selves?
Full pain relief is expected in 1 hour and stays that way dose to dose.
Don't ever increase his meds yourself always confer with the vet.
Post op rehabwww.dodgerslist.com/literature/rehab.htmIt will help us if you can also answer the questions below, thanks. Did the surgeon say when to begin the at home PT? How many weeks did your surgeon direct for post-op rest? Post-op dogs will follow surgeon’s directives for PT during post-op rest as the offending disc material was surgically removed. Post-op crate rest is to allow the surgical sites to heal. Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite, the mattress and more! www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmSTRICT for a post-op dog means: ◼︎no laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎"no chiro therapy whys":http://www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htm ◼︎no dragging or meandering at potty times. How to support back legs when walking at potty times  Calmers Here are some tips on calming him down while he is on crate rest. Is your dog rambunctious? Ask your vet about Rescue Remedy Pet, Plain Benadryl or some other calming aid. It is imperative that during the healing period the dog rests. Being inside the crate jumping against the crate is not resting. The dog must be calm. Make sure you are not inadvertently training the dog for unwanted behavior. Rewards are food, eye contact, speaking, approaching the crate. Music: Hours of Relaxation Music for Dogs Great for people too Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price. Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. --Dogs: Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/us/Products/ADAPTIL-Calm-Home-Diffuser with dog pheromones Use a DAP diffuser with one oral calmer from below: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. -- Put a garment you have been wearing and have not washed in the crate. If a dog is jumping up at the sides of the crate, you can lower the ceiling of the crate. Cut a piece of cardboard the size of the top of the crate, punch holes in the corners and tie the cardboard down into the crate to the level of the top of the dog's head when standing. Or cover the top of the crate with a blanket or towel, bringing the blanket/towel down to the level of the dog's eyes so when he/she jumps up, he won't be able to see anything. That may discourage him/her from jumping up. Getting your home back friendly www.dodgerslist.com/literature/protectback.htmkind regards Mary |
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 12, 2019 5:51:40 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist, Christine. So glad you’ve joined us all. We’ve got valuable information we’ve gleaned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you. Good to hear that you believe Waffles' pain is completely under control. If you do see any sign of pain as listed by Mary, please do immediately notify the vet so the pain meds can be adjusted. For how many days has the Novox been prescribed for? What is the dosage of the Codeine and how many times is it being given a day? How many mgs in one ml of the Gabapentin (should be on the bottle) and how many times a day is it being given? Anytime a dog is on an anti-inflammatory such as Novox, a stomach protector MUST be given to protect against the side effects of the Novox. Ask if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn't need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a "no health" issues answer,then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine). Doxie weight dogs: 5mg Pepcid (famotidine) every 12 hours. NOTE: Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.html canigivemydog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/can-i-give-my-dog-pepcid-ac-300x300.jpgGI tract problems? --No nausea/not eating, no vomit? --Poops OK? Normal firmness & color -no dark black or bright red blood indicating bleeding ulcers? No diarrhea? Constipation is common following a surgery. Pumpkin can help loosen stools. Give one teaspoon of pumpkin for every 10 pounds of body weight per day. To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal along with plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day. Note alternatives for constipation: really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potato. Do be cautious about your crate set-up. Dogs can suddenly do the unexpected and it would be so much safer for Waffles to be confined to the crate with the door shut. You don't want to re-injure himself. The surgeon knows best how many weeks for post-op crate rest. 4-6 weeks post-op crate rest is common. Mary has given you some excellent tips on helping calm Waffles. If the Trazodone isn't doing enough, speak to the vet about prescribing something else. More tips on emergency crate training here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/EmergencyCrate%20Training.htmWhat type of at home PT has been prescribed? You might want to take a look at our page on post-op exercises to see if there are any that might be helpful - be sure to run them past the surgeon before starting any: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htmAcupuncture, laser and water therapy are excellent post-op therapies, if within your budget. Check with surgeon prior to starting. Is the surgeon a general DVM or a specialist surgeon: ACVIM neurology or ACVS ortho?Mary has given you the link on how to make your home back friendly. On that page is a list of never-again activities, such as going up and down stairs, jumping on and off furniture, etc. Knowledge is the power to fight the IVDD enemy and win!! The very best thing you can do for YOU, the caregiver, and for your dog is to get up to speed on IVDD as soon as possible. Begin absorbing the must-have overall sense of meds, care and how the treatment works. Your dog will be depending on your ability to learn: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/theater.htm --- PRINT OUT this link and tape to your fridge: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm --- use the printout as your roadmap to avoid dangerous detours in your dog's care --- make notes/highlight to keep yourself on track --- follow all the links in the next days to become the IVDD savvy pet parent your dog needs. Use the “search box” to easily locate topics over at our Main www.dodgerslist.com website: www.dodgerslist.com/index/searchBOX.jpgHealing prayers for Waffles. |
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Post by Michelle & Keira on Mar 12, 2019 20:13:20 GMT -7
Hi Christine,
Sounds like Waffles is doing really well after surgery. Great that he can already take some wobbly steps. He will get stronger each week.
As for the length of crate rest, your surgeon will guide you on this. The length of crate rest after surgery is different to crate rest for conservative care. The length of Waffles crate rest will be determined on how quickly he recovers. We have done the surgery twice, first time we were instructed to do 6 weeks, second surgery the recovery was accelerated and we did 4 weeks. You will probably have regular check ups and at that time they will instruct you. When you go out to potty keep the wandering to a few minutes at the very most, he really needs to rest and heal. Doing too much too soon is no good.
Wishing Waffles all the best for a great recovery.
Take care,
Michelle
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Post by Christine & Waffles on Mar 14, 2019 15:31:43 GMT -7
So we had our 2 week post op and got staples removed today and it brought up some questions for me. The neurologist [DVM, DACVIM] is very pleased with his progress and suggested that his muscle tone may be too good for some of the passive range of motion PT and suggested that we start taking him on 5-10 minute walks. But he's only on his second week of crate rest, is this safe?
She also had me put him on the floor to see how he moved and I'd like to know if I'm being crazy or not. I wanted to sit on the floor in case he fell or tried to jump and she insisted I leave him so she could see him move. He proceeded to try and run and jump like an idiot and she wouldn't let me stop him as he slipped and fell all over the slippery concrete floor. This didn't feel safe or prudent but maybe I'm being overprotective? I'm open to that possibility.
We also looked at his MRI (I never saw it since his surgery was an emergency situation). It showed that all of his discs have signs of degeneration and are not holding moisture and appear dull on MRI. Additionally, it showed a bulging disc at T12-13 (his surgery was for a herniated disc at T11-12). I asked if he should have had a fenestration and she said no. I asked if it would be prudent to go on some steroids or anti-inflammatories to treat that disc so it does not herniate and was told no because it [bulging disc at T12-13] looked like a chronic thing. Does this sound right?
I was also told I could crate the dogs together since he has separation anxiety and as much as I'd like to I just don't feel safe doing so. They're too rowdy.
Also to fill in above blanks: his surgery was 2/28. We are officially two weeks out today!
He only had a few days of the novox after surgery. It was prescribed 2/25 so he took it then, 2/26, 2/27, then had surgery 2/28 and I believe he did not get it, then went back on 2/29, and had 6 more days worth. I was not suggested to have stomach protection.
He only had one Codeine the morning of 2/28 and I haven't given another as I prefer the Gabapentin, which states Soln 50mg/ml, 1ml every 8-12 hours (I've been doing it every 12 recently and will be weaning [gabapentin] him to once per day starting today or tomorrow.
He is a really happy guy. At his check up he was trying to run around and he wags his tail so much. He picks up his feet really well, but his right hind leg still knuckles over a lot so he ends up a bit wobbly. But he doesn't seem to notice at all, he's exactly himself.
Seeing the MRI today with that other bulging disc has made me so paranoid that he's going to go back down as soon as he gets back to normal activity, if I'm being honest. I love him so much and he is also the hardest to train dog I've ever met in my life, and I used to work in a shelter!
Oh, also, she said I did not need to schedule any more appointments with her unless something goes wrong...
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 14, 2019 17:24:58 GMT -7
Is the surgeon a general DVM or a specialist surgeon: ACVIM neurology or ACVS???
I would absolutely NOT crate your Waffles with your other dog. Crate rest is for healing and Waffles protection..
This doesn't happen with all dogs but there is a pack instinct to eliminate pack members that are weak or sick.. I wouldn't leave Waffles and your other dog together without supervision.. Absolutely do not crate them together ever.. You can crate your other dog next to him in his or her own crate.. That way they can keep each other company safely..
The surgeon should not have allowed Waffles to slip and fall on the cement floor.. I don't blame you for being overprotective.. I am too and sometimes that is a good thing..
After Tyler had his surgery the PT was short walks starting right away at 3 minutes and gradually increased weekly.. He was on post op crate rest for 6 weeks..
The right back foot that knuckles is from nerve damage.. That can repair with time..Nerves are the slowest part of the body to heal but heal they can..
If the Trazadone doesn't calm him you might ask for a different sedative.. Acepromazine is another one that some of our member dogs have used when Trazadone doesn't work..
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Post by Christine & Waffles on Mar 14, 2019 18:16:12 GMT -7
She was in the neurology department and is a DVM, DACVIM.
I let them know the trazadone wasn't working and they said they had no other med options and suggested crating them together...
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Post by Michelle & Keira on Mar 16, 2019 3:57:08 GMT -7
Hi Christine,
Seeing that Waffles only had surgery two weeks ago, and is still on crate rest/recovery, it seems odd to me that they would not want to have any further follow up appointments. My experience when we had surgery in Australia, we had regular check ups until the point of them telling me it was then ok to stop crate rest and resume normal activity.
Perhaps you should seek another appointment for when you hit the 4 week mark, and then you will know how long to crate rest him for?
As for the knuckling, this can take sometime. It took my Keira a few months, but it did eventually return to normal.
As for the MRI you had, we had a similar experience. We were told that Keira has a number of calcified discs, but they also reassured us that many dogs can have this and continue to live a life without any further incident. I guess it just means we have to be extra careful with the no jumping and stairs etc.
As for the bulging disc, I cannot offer any advice on this. The moderators on this site would be better.
IVDD is very stressful, stay positive though, you’ll get through this.
Michelle
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 16, 2019 10:24:53 GMT -7
Christine, it is always a good idea to be cautious in beginning PT. To ease into things in a slow manner. You would want to be able to rule out that pain was not from overdoing weak muscles. You may feel comfortable in making sure your PT with Waffles in always in a well controlled situation of no other dogs around and you are in control of his speeed via a harness and 6ft leash. PT is always slow so that Waffles has a chance to concentrate on controlling his muscles, paw placement and his walking gait.
1st week.
Mon-Tues- 1 min up and down hallway 1x back in crate observe, no signs of soreness?
then:...
Wed 1 min up and down hallway 3x a day
Thurs-Sat 1 min up and down hallway 4-5x a day.
2nd week.
5 min walk outside 1x a day early in the week building to 3x a day later in the week
3rd week.
10 mins walk outside 1x a day, building to 3x a day.
Always use common sense If you think your dog might have overdone it, then rest the dog in the crate and observe. Call the vet if you have concerns. Do not rush your dog back into activity: the risk of overdoing is not worth taking, it is better to go slowly for a few weeks.
It could be the slow and gradual increase of exercise will help calm him til post-op crate rest is officially over (graduation) and he can be allowed to have some gradual release on his own around the house and the yard on Mar 28th. You could also discuss with your own local DVM vet if anxiety is still an issue.
Do you have his crate up high so he can see all around the house? Maybe on a sturdy coffee table or the dinning room table? What does he do when he is anxious?
Crating together will never be an option anymore.
For dogs the inborn instinct about weakness is for survival protection of the pack as a whole. There are two things that can happen in pack dynamics when a dog has been or is sick.
1. The healthy one may try to eliminate the weaker in the pack.
2. For the sick one, now the weaker in the pack to become more protective and aggressive because they know they are weaker now and may be subject to being attacked.
Make sure that Waffles will feel protected from his best buds when home alone... the crate will be that source of protection. Whenever you leave the house and they are not supervised, it is a good idea to crate them for their own safety. We have had many instances where a deadly attack among best buds could have been avoided by crating. One I recall is of two sisters who had grown up together and never showed any signs of aggression to one another. The two dogs were put in the kitchen while their owners went out to dinner. They came home to find the IVDD dog almost dead from the vicious attacks of the other.
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Post by Christine & Waffles on Mar 17, 2019 13:58:14 GMT -7
His crate is situated so that he is right next to me and at my level.
To clarify: are you saying I can never crate them together again, even after he is out of crate rest and rehabilitated?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 17, 2019 14:20:43 GMT -7
From this point on you can never crate them together and know for sure some action would cause an attack on Waffles.  There are two things that can happen in pack dynamics when a dog has been or is sick. 1. The healthy one may try to eliminate the weaker in the pack. 2. For the sick one, now the weaker in the pack to become more protective and aggressive because they know they are weaker now and may be subject to being attacked.
Make sure that your IVDD dog feels protected from his best buds when home alone. Whenever you leave the house and they are not supervised, it is a good idea to crate them separately for their own safety. |
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Post by Christine & Waffles on Apr 2, 2019 18:54:13 GMT -7
Hello!
Waffles is progressing quite nicely. He seems very happy and he has been passing neuro tests! He is able to correct his foot if it is placed in the knuckle over position!
I am seeking some advice. When his MRI results were reviewed, we were told that the disc adjacent to the herniated/repaired disc was bulging. They did not correct it. I know surgery post op rest is generally 4-6 weeks, but I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to rest longer due to the bulging disc?
In all honesty I'm quite terrified of it. We've been advised to give him a bit more freedom and he just doesn't really know how to moderate. He kind of has two speeds: lazy laying around or running and jumping like a fool. I know I can't keep him in a bubble forever. So any advice on if his rest should be longer, and how to help ease him back into life without hurting himself would be so appreciated!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 2, 2019 19:07:29 GMT -7
Christine, the neuro who saw his MRI and the adjacent bulging disc would be the person to ask questions of. Did the neuro fenestrate the adjacent bulging disc. That is remove some of the interior of the bulging disc so that it was more likely to not rupture?
Which does the neuro now want for crate rest 4 weeks or 6 weeks now?
What date was the MRI taken and reviewed... at the time of surgery back in Feb 2019??
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Post by Christine & Waffles on Apr 2, 2019 20:32:10 GMT -7
[What date was the MRI taken and reviewed... at the time of surgery back in Feb 2019?] It was taken at time of surgery.
She did not fenestrate. I've been skeptical as she said I could discontinue rest at two weeks, said we needed no rehab, and is also the one who let him slip around the floor and jump all over and fall in his follow up. She said he needed no more care or follow up after two weeks and this didn't feel right..?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Apr 3, 2019 5:50:37 GMT -7
Usually we see surgeons prescribe 4-6 weeks post op crate rest and they usually follow up for three months after surgery. But the surgeon is the one who would know best as to what was done during surgery and what post op care is necessary. No two dogs are alike.
In looking back at your posts, I see that the neuro mentioned that the bulging disc looked like a chronic disc. If so, that would be known as Type II disc disease as opposed to an acute disc episode caused by Type I disc disease which the type usually seen on this forum. It's a more slowly progressive disc problem. As for why the surgeon didn't deal with that disc at the time of surgery, I really can't say. Only the surgeon looking at the MRI can determine what can or can't be done. If the chronic disc is not compressing the spine, then a slow reintroduction to activity and PT can be done so that may be the reason the surgeon has given the OK to reintroduce movement at this time.
If you no longer have faith in the surgeon, then you might want to have another neuro take a look at the MRI.
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