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Post by Sarah & Franklin on Oct 11, 2018 12:30:54 GMT -7
Conservative treatment for IVDD neck, back, and arthritis HI, I have a 11 year old Schnauzer/dachshund mix. Franklin is about 17 pounds. He had a small flare in his neck about a month ago. Vet said just to keep him off the stairs/furniture for 2 weeks and then he was fine. We also keep all the food and water dishes raised. Sunday, October 7, he was limping in back leg just for a few minutes. His back legs also slide outward or inward whenever he stands and eats. So the vet said it's mild probably IVDD, but possibly arthritis also. She may take xrays later depending on how he's doing. Vet says currently there are no neurological symptoms. He's taking meloxicam 1/day dose for 17 pound dog (that's what the syringe says rather than mg). Gabapentin 25 mg 2x/day. He also takes mirtazipine for appetite, prozac, and trazedone for anxiety as needed. He is still grieving his doxie friend who passed in July due to IVDD. Franklin is pictured with his sweet friend, now deceased. [Moderator's note: please do not modify17 lbsmeloxicam as of 10/7: 1x/day for ? days, then stop to test for pain/neurogabapentin 35mgs 2x/dayno stomach protection!
mirtazipine
trazadone] I don't know how to keep them calm in the crate. I read the training directions, but I have to work, you know? do you guys take a few days off work to do crate training? I could do some short sessions several times/day, but what do you do the other 8 hours? just let them bark? Franklin also has swollen trachea ( collapsing trachea is the actual condition) where when he barks that irritates his trachea. So I'm supposed to keep him from barking if possible. The medication for his trachea is a steriod which can ruin his liver, so we really don't want to have to use it. It seems overwhelming to manage both conditions. On top of all that my mini doxie, Charlotte, has been on crate rest for 5 weeks due to a soft tissue injury from falling down the stairs. We are having a hard time here! What do you all do while you're at work for dogs on crate rest? Franklin is typically my velcro dog who even goes to work with me (I work from home). thanks for any support or tips. Sarah and Franklin  |
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 11, 2018 14:10:59 GMT -7
Sarah, so sorry to hear much going on at your house. Do verify that Meloxicam is not currently being given with a steroid---that would be contra-indicated, very dangerous to the GI tract. What stomach protector do you have on board with the Meloxicam? Pepcid AC (famoitidine) 5 mgs every 12 hours? For how many days is he to be on Meloxicam before the stop to test for pain/neuro issues? Since you work at home a pet stroller, a pack N Play which also has wheels can mean Franklin can go with you room to room. Features and other considerations about strollers: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/strollers.htm Forum discussion on stroller brands: dodgerslist.boards.net/thread/3017/dog-stroller-recovery-suites?page=1&scrollTo=33094Is the legs slipping out something new or has happened prior to Oct 7? XRAYs A vet often suspicions a disc episode by knowing your dog is a breed prone to IVDD, his history plus the signs shown with a hands on neuro examination. If your dog improves with the prescribed medication and rest, then likely the diagnosis was correct. An X-ray would be taken to rule out other problems/diseases such as broken bone, bone tumor, disc infection or other potential causes of spinal cord damage. X-rays can show narrowed intervertebral disc spaces that are consistent with disc disease but not proof of a current disc episode. Though intervertebral disc disease can be suspected, xray is inadequate to definitively diagnose it and the site of compression on the spinal cord nor the state of the bad disc itself. Soft tissue like discs, spinal cord cannot be seen on traditional xrays. Dr Larry Carpenter DVM MS Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Surgeons: "Don’t Anesthetize the patient to take x-rays unless you are prepared to do a myelogram and surgery at your practice. The patient’s primary defense against further disk extrusion is dependent upon adequate control over the trunk muscles – this defense is eliminated with anesthesia." |
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Post by Sarah & Franklin on Oct 11, 2018 17:37:49 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
Franklin is on meloxicam now; his last steriod was probably a month ago or more. I had read on here and specifically asked my vet about the stomach protection. She said the time it takes to load pepcid into the system takes longer than he would be on meloxicam? However, I think we could try it anyway. My vet just said that she has dealt with this a lot and it almost never happened the stomach issues. They gave me a dosage for meloxicam, and then are supposed to call and check in to see how he's doing before they say how long to do the meloxicam. They call to check in Friday I think. I actually have sucrulfate on hand from my own health issues to spare.
I have been moving Franklin room to room, but I work in the basement. I teach piano lessons. So I have to carry him down the stairs. He is great in the crate if I'm within a few feet. But if I'm in the kitchen and he's in the living room, both are completely open and he can still see me, he is barking.
The vet and I discussed the xrays and such. He has history of arthritis, so that's very likely a part in it. Franklin has always carried himself oddly even when confirmed healthy. Since our doxie died, he's had a hard time eating at all. I think the sliding legs started a month ago. He had been examined recently and I didn't think about it so much. When the dogs eat on their own I don't notice so much... Franklin has needed lots of attention to eat in the last few months since Linus died.
My vet discussed with me how much an xray could tell us. I am an anxious type, and I suspect she is just not being super transparent about his future. Franklin was so close to Linus for his entire life. We have done trainers and the vet giving us behavioral meds...they have all told me about how when one of the bonded pair dies, the other often does as well. It's terrifying . I could sit with Franlin 24/7 and I think he would be calm in the crate, but I have other dogs, and a job. I travel to teach a few classes/week. So he's alone maybe 2 hours/day tops. The rest he can be with me the whole time.
Charlotte is VERY loud at times in the crate, which irritates everyone. So we have to stay separate, which is hard on the MOM GUILT.
thank you!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 12, 2018 7:27:36 GMT -7
Sarah, Pepcid AC (famotidine) takes 30 mins to be effective and lasts for 12 hrs-- released to over the counter because few side effects. Read so you know all about Pepcid AC which is on the shelf at the grocery store: marvistavet.com/famotidine.pml So give Pepcid AC 30 mins before Meloxicam and give Meloxicam with a meal as added protection. Both stress from changes in routine and Meloxicam increase stomach acids. Best to be proactive and not have Franklin endure another problem of GI tract damage on top of a disc episode. Many of us have more than one recovery suite. IF doable for you--- one in the basement, one upstiars, etc. Thrift shops may have an inexpensive option of a used PackN Play, baby crib, etc. ? An inexpensive pet stroller as it will just be used indoors is another suite option. Two hrs away from Frankliln should be just fine. Maybe he would need your help in being able to relax in his suite? You may need to help him (maybe Charlotte also?) relax in the suite and not be rambunctious (if that is what he is doing). Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives (ACE or trazodone). Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Place a DAP pheromone diffusor at floor level where the recovery suite is: --DOG Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/Use above diffusor with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php 3) Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation www.bachrescueremedypet.com |
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Post by Sarah & Franklin on Oct 14, 2018 17:19:45 GMT -7
Paula,
Thank you so much for your advice. I have ordered the composure. We have tried l theanine in the past with no luck. I'm not sure about the cost of the stroller.... Will look into that. I've got the ✚pepcid as well.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
17 lbs
meloxicam as of 10/7: 1x/day for ? days, then stop to test for pain/neuro
gabapentin 35mgs 2x/day
Pepcid AC (famotditine) ? 5mgs 2x/day ?
mirtazipine
trazadone]
We're trying. My husband has a busy schedule with football season, so hopefully this is the last week of football and we can get by.
I'll keep you posted!
Franklin has been doing well. Walking good on potty breaks and seems to feel good. Great appetite.
Thanks so much!
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Mary & Mila
Helpful Member 
FEMALE— DACHSHUND
Posts: 218 
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Post by Mary & Mila on Oct 15, 2018 3:34:38 GMT -7
Hi Sarah,
I sympathise with the crate issues with Franklin.
My dachshund is a bit of a live wire and totally hated being crated during her IVDD episodes.
I used put a cover on the top of the crate, like a throw or blanket, it made it more den like, that worked at times.
Also I discovered relaxation music for dogs on YouTube! And it works, put it on and watch Franklin calm down after a few minutes. I used leave it on for dog continuously. Definitely worth a shot.
Here's a link from YouTube
kind regards
Mary
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Post by Sarah & Franklin on Oct 15, 2018 6:10:43 GMT -7
Thanks, Mary! We've tried music with no noticable change. I ordered a stroller, but will not arrive until Friday. Seems there is no place I can just go pick one up today.
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Post by Sarah & Franklin on Oct 16, 2018 17:53:33 GMT -7
Franklin has become completely panicked in the crate. Our vet says don't put him in the crate, but in the calmest place instead. We are also using trazedone and just got CBD oil. I know it's not traditional, but he looked like a panic attack. He also has had separation anxiety since Linus passed.
Has anyone ever done this? Vet says to try to keep him quiet, but he's allowed to walk calmly. I feel this is the best option since his barking and panic is so extreme.... He could seriously compromise his liver in just a month with the collapsed trachea from the barking. It's so hard to deal with multiple health issues. Do senior dachshunds come out of conservative treatment? He is 11 years old. His ivdd pain seems manageable with meds, but one more round of steroids for trachea could kill him. We're having a hard time.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 16, 2018 18:28:58 GMT -7
Do whatever you can to avoid him walking. Walking has the back's vertebrae moving and pressing on all disc including the bad one. Whatever you can do do make it just fewest of footsteps, not walking.
Do you have an ex-pen? Hope the stroller will help calm him.
11 years old is not that old...so many have done well with conservative treatment.
For how many days is he to take Meloxicam?
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Post by Sarah & Franklin on Oct 17, 2018 4:54:05 GMT -7
He has been on meloxicam for one week. I believe we are aiming for two weeks before re-evaluating. I realized the stroller I ordered is too small...it's so hard to gauge the size of the actual interior compartment from the online descriptions. The one recommended here, and all the others big enough, are so expensive! I'm not sure about paying that much if it doesn't actually work. I'd happily buy a used one, but I can't find any. We do have baby gates that combine to form a pen...he literally ripped the gate out of the wall in the past, so I doubt that's an option. I feel very stuck because there's no one to help me. I couldn't get it through my sitter's head the restrictions...she let him jump on the couch. There's no one who can watch him and follow the rules.
I have been successful in putting his harness on and tying the leash to my piano while I teach class. He is still calm and only able to walk a few steps. Is that easier on his back? I haven't tried it since we've started rest.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Oct 17, 2018 8:10:44 GMT -7
Sarah, a leash and harnness sounds like a doable option when you are there, present, with Franklin to know he wo't get wrapped up in the leash. If he is calm and the leash/harness would keep him from but a few footsteps that may be the way to go.
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Post by Sarah & Franklin on Oct 17, 2018 8:46:13 GMT -7
ok thanks. we will try that
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Post by Sarah & Franklin on Nov 1, 2018 5:09:22 GMT -7
Franklin has been released from crate rest by the vet! He is doing very well:)
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,540
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Post by PaulaM on Nov 1, 2018 8:32:23 GMT -7
Sarah, I think we may have missed some information since you last wrote on Oct 17th where the graduation date was to be Dec 2 to allow for full healing of the disc.
What was the last date of using Meloxicam?
When was gabapentin stopped?
Do Franklin's back legs still slip out from underneath him?
With a disc episode the goal is to get the disc healed. Discs are made of cartilage with little blood supply to aid in healing (forming scar tissue) so it takes a LONG TIME to heal and little movement to avoid disruption of what scar tissue has started to form. After 8 weeks of strict rest it is then safe for the disc to begin a slow and gradual introduction back to family life.
With arthritis, the treatment is completely opposite. Movement helps to ease the pain and keep the joints flexible.
What is the vet's current assessment and current diagnosis of what likely was the cause of when standing his legs slide in or outwards?
Lack of leg control sounds like a neuro logical issue of the muscles not being able to follow the message the brain is sending about placement of legs/paws. A disc episode very often affects the nerves as it pushes on the spinal cord.
When it is a challenge to know for certainty if arthritis or a disc issue, it is prudent to act like it is a disc problem to prevent possible movement to severe neuro spinal cord damage like leg paralysis.
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Post by Sarah & Franklin on Nov 1, 2018 12:25:23 GMT -7
Hi Paula,
He's been resting about a month as best we could. Due to his other health issues, vet is having us continue meloxicam at a reduced dosage. we are continuing pepcid. He is walking fine and his legs aren't slipping. At the original appointment, vet said there were no neurological symptoms and the slipping was probably arthritis. He had no signs of pain for the last few weeks without gabapentin so I just keep it for if we need it again in the future.
He showed no signs of pain at the vet most recently when he wasn't on any pain meds, even meloxicam. I had run out a few days before our appointment.
Franklin is generally a calm couch potato type, so we aren't concerned about ending crate rest. He won't be doing stairs or jumping anymore.
I know this site promotes 8 weeks crate rest, but I really trust our vet and she said he's fine to walk around now. She didn't think it was worth the money for xrays. Either way, we have to balance this with the collapse trachea and try to avoid a steriod at all costs as there is no cure for collapse trachea.
We appreciate all you do to support us and those suffering from IVDD. Thank you!
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Nov 1, 2018 12:48:39 GMT -7
I am very glad to hear that Franklin is showing no signs of pain right now.
If you are taking him off crate rest now please be super careful that he does not do too much when he walks. It would be just terrible if he were to have a relapse.
You are right that stairs and jumping should forever be avoided. You can use furniture blockers to avoid Franklin jumping up on furniture. My Frankie still wanted to jump on furniture for the longest time.
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Post by Sarah & Franklin on Nov 1, 2018 17:00:29 GMT -7
Thanks Romy,
We've got a good setup with no exposed stairs, couch blockers, and several baby gates. My neighbor has 5 purebred dachshunds, and she's had over 20 over her life. She uses our same vet, so I do trust them.
thanks so much!
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