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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 12, 2018 6:55:52 GMT -7
I have noticed back legs and feet twitching at night during deep sleep. Any thoughts
11 days in conservative treatment.
Ty new to this forum
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PaulaM
Moderator. 
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on May 12, 2018 7:26:34 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist! So glad you’ve joined us all. Hi, my name is Paula, what's yours? We’ve got valuable information we’ve gleaned from the vets Dodgerslist consults with and our own experiences with IVDD since 2002 to share with you! Just so you are aware: disc disease is not a death sentence. See for yourself here: www.dodgerslist.com/index/more.htmIt will help us work together with you and avoid offering ideas that could cause harm or lead the discussion in the wrong direction delaying help for your dog — please share a bit more detail with us: ❖1 Is there still currently pain? ❑ shivering, trembling ❑ Arched back ❑ yelping when picked up or moved ❑ can’t find a comfortable position ❑ reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move ❑ tight tense tummy ❑ Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ❑ Not their normal perky selves? ❖2 How much does your dog weigh? …A Please list the exact names of meds currently given, their doses in mgs and times per day given. …B If on a steroid….what was the start date & dose? Date of steroid taper? If on a NSAID, for how many days has it been prescribed for? …C PEPCID AC: Ask if your dog has any health issues to prevent use of Pepcid AC (famotidine)? (doesn’t need it, we wait til there is problem…are NOT answers to your question!) If you get a “no health issues” answer, then go to the grocery store to purchase over the counter Pepcid AC containing one single active ingredient (famotidine). canigivemydog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/can-i-give-my-dog-pepcid-ac-300x300.jpgDoxie weight dogs: 5mg Pepcid AC (famotidine) every 12 hours. NOTE: Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound, 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours for as long as your dog is on the anti-inflammatory. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.html❖3 GI Tract problems? —Eating and drinking OK? No recent changes in diet/foods? No nausea/not eating, no vomit? —Poops OK? Normal firmness & color -no dark black or bright red blood indicating bleeding ulcers? No diarrhea? ❖4 What was the date you saw the vet for CONSERVATIVE treatment? The hallmark component of conservative treatment is the very STRICT crate rest part (no PT, little movement). With little blood supply discs are much slower to form good scar tissue than it takes a blood rich broken bone to heal. Those weeks of a cast for a broken arm to heal is similar to the recovery suite being a kind of cast for the disc. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong scar tissue to form. Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite, the mattress and more! —> www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmSTRICT means: ◼︎no laps ◼︎no couches ◼︎no baths ◼︎no sleeping with you ◼︎no chiro therapy "whys": __ www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htm ◼︎no dragging or meandering at potty times. ◼︎no PT for conservative dogs during 8 weeks to heal disc ◼︎laser or acupuncture for severe neuro damage is best at home via a mobile vet. Transports are always a risk to the disc of too much movement. Vet visits must be weighed risk vs. benefit for dogs with little to mild neuro diminishment. ❖5 Can your dog specifically sniff and squat and then release urine which is bladder control – OR- do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted which are indication of an overflowing bladder and loss of bladder control? Overflowing bladders need to be expressed to avoid UTIs. Review video then get a hands-on-top-of-your-hands expressing lesson. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htmDOGs with BLADDER CONTROL: Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog’s back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! www.dodgerslist.com/literature/slingwalk.jpg❖6 Currently can your dog wobbly walk? move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk? ❖7 What breed? What is your dog’s name? Your name, too? ❖8 Did you specifically get a diagnosis of IVDD, aka: a disc problem, a disc herniation, a bulging disc, slipped disc? — Is the vet a general DVM or a specialist surgeon: ACVIM neurology or ACVS ortho? Knowledge is the power to fight the IVDD enemy and win!! The very best thing you can do for YOU, the caregiver, and for your dog is to go over to our Main Dodgerslist website as soon as possible. Begin absorbing the must-have overall sense of meds, care and how the treatment works. Your dog will be depending on your ability to learn. Our IVDD Treasure Trove: view the 9 IVDD videos and then follow the buttons that apply to things at hand. Follow the rest of the buttons in the next couple of days. You will be amazed with yourself on how well IVDD educated you can become in a such a short time! Here's the link to bookmark to start your education: www.dodgerslist.com/healingindex.htm PRINT OUT this link on conservative and tape to your fridge: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm - use the printout as your roadmap to avoid dangerous detours in your dog’s care - make notes/highlight to keep yourself on track - follow all the links in the next days to become the IVDD savvy pet parent your dog needs. - Use the “search box” to easily locate other topics you are interested in over at our Main www.dodgerslist.com website: www.dodgerslist.com/index/searchBOX.jpg We look foward to your answers so we know best how to comment about your observations of twitching. |
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 12, 2018 8:07:06 GMT -7
PACO 11y/o lhasapo 18lbs 11 day's since jumping onto/off bed
Ocala Florida
Meds
Rimadyl 18mg 2×s a day
▼Gabapentin 100mg 1 a day
just started weaning yesterday was taking it twice a day.
Pepcid 5mg 2xs a day
just started yesterday,hes only eating half of meals last few days.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
Rimady as of 5/2: 18mgs 2x/day for ? days then a stop to test for pain/neuro loss
gabapentin 100mgs ▼1x/day as of 5/11
Pepcid AC 5mgs 2x/day]
Eating ok, was great
Pee and poo outside in sling last 8 days. Only thing with this is he wont just pee or poo, wants to be picky about where he goes.
After 2 days he started moving back legs and walks mostly correct in sling if i support his weight. If i let any weight down his left rear will knuckle.
After poo he wants to RUN, freaked me out first time, now he has a leash on both ends.
Paco had to learn to be on leash, crate and not go where ever he please. We live in country.
The Internet has been my best friend through this. Vet didn't give me any information but meds and told me to let him rest.
ER vet suggested MRI and possibly surgery, not a option like most
Vet set recheck in a month.
Should he have had xray? How do they know from just a physical exam?
First available acupuncture appointment is in 3 more weeks.
Paco doesn't seem to be in much pain but isn't trying to walk or stand unless he is in sling, like he knows better.
He pushes up onto front paws wags tail and when excited sits up mostly with back legs under him but pointed straight out in front.
I hope i answer all your questions.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on May 12, 2018 8:57:22 GMT -7
What is your name? Not eating to us is a real big red flag sign of Rimadyl toxicity. For an 18 lbs dog you can move Pepcid AC to 10mgs 2x/day. If his appetite does not return by next meal or so, then strongly advocate for a 2nd protector to go along with the Pepcid AC. Most dogs are find with Pepcid AC, while some few do need that double stomach protection. The 2nd protector to advocate for would be SUCRALFATE. Back up and do click on the blue sucralfate link to learn how this med is given in regard to meals, Pepcid AC. Can you set up a fenced in area as described so Paco knows there will be no sniff festing allowed at potty time? An ex-pen in the grass or some of the cheap wire poke in the ground garden edging fence will be a nice physical and a visual barrier to let him know to quickly attend to business. Paco is a good candidate to heal with conservative movement. It all depends on you and your commitment to limited movement of the back. That includes scrutinizing vet visits and doing what can be done on the phone to eliminate risky to the early healing disc vehicle transports. Any time out of the crate is a dangerous time for a dog going through an IVDD disc episode. Most vets who understand how strict the crate rest must be will understand that it's too much of a risk to bring the dog in to the office for a follow-up exam. You can call the vet to give status updates on pain and neuro function and adjust meds. For how many days is the Rimadyl course. Pain meds are not backed off or stopped until Rimadyl stopped as a test for pain and for neuro diminishment. Paco has been on Rimadyl since 5/2? ..... so it's been 12 days. Call today and see if you can stop Rimadyl and the gabapentin as the test for pain. MONITOR and report NEURO FUNCTION diminishment on the stop of Rimadyl As damage to the spinal cord increases, there is a predictable stepwise deterioration of functions. When nerve healing begins, often it follows the reverse order. 1. Pain caused by the tearing disc & inflammation in the spinal cord 2. Wobbly walking, legs cross 3. Nails/toes scuffing floor 4. Paws knuckle 5. Weak/little leg movement, can't move up into a stand 6. Legs do not work at all (paralysis, dog is down) 7. Bladder control is lost 8. Tail wagging with joy is lost 9. Deep pain sensation, the last neuro function, a critical indicator for nerves to be able to self heal after surgery or with conservative treatment. Pain= another course of Rimadyl+ all pain meds back on board + Pepcid AC. No Pain= no need of any meds...just finish out the 8 weeks of crate rest for the disc to heal. The full details on how Rimadyl, an anti-inflammatory works with a disc episode. Good reading to be able to ask the right questions and discuss treatment: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmWith bladder control, happy tail wags and the ability to move the back legs in a walking motion even if it requires some sling support means he can quite possibly self repair nerves on his own. Doing xrays, MRI provides no knowledge to contribute to strict rest. These kinds of pictures require anesthesia to obtain good quality pictures. That means the core muscles which support the back go to sleep and adds risk for further disc tears, etc. Xrays are used to rule out when there is a good suspicion of another disease: tumor, bone fracture, bone infection, and so forth. MRI's are used to plan out the surgery. ◼︎Laser or acupuncture for severe neuro damage is best at home via a mobile vet. Transports are again always a risk to the disc of too much movement. Vet visits must be weighed risk vs. benefit for dogs with little to mild neuro diminishment. Paco is very likely going to self heal his nerves on his own with time as most dogs do. Not in much pain does not sound good. There should be NO pain. What do you observe as some pain? Does it happen nearing the next dose of gabapentin? When he has to move such as at potty time. As long as there is ANY pain, pain meds should not be reduced and Rimadyl should not be stopped to test for pain... make sense? Let us know specifically what you observe for "not much pain" Signs of Pain: ◻︎ shivering-trembling ◻︎ yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎ slow to move ◻︎ tight tense tummy ◻︎ arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎ head held high or nose to the ground. ◻︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ◻︎ slow or reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎ not eating due to painful chewing or in too much overall pain ◻︎ not their normal perky selves
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 12, 2018 9:54:57 GMT -7
Im Darlene
He started Rimadyl 5/2 when we left ER VET 6am
Thats when they recommend MRI possible surgery not a option.
I call his vet and he seen him that afternoon. No feeling in left rear hind, little in right rear.
Vet seen him after a week, a few days ago, said wean off sedatives, and gabapentin. Hes been off sedatives and still weaning off gabapentin.
He hasn't quivered or yelped since the first 48 hours of accident.
He not as perky but not like he was a week ago either.
He lifts his head quick if he hears dad come home and wiggles in excitement.
I try to be holding him, im the favorite but a push over, so he doesn't get too excited at this time.
Otherwise he chills in crate, moves to get comfy once in awhile but not too much.
He never yelps or whines and after i get harness on hes excited to go out. He only knuckles on left rear in standing position if i dont keep weight off. He lifts both legs the past few days to pee. At first it was a squat or just the right.
Now 11 days later he feels both feet, i test him every night when he sleeping.
He doesn't jerk but pulls away a bit, normal for him. He is use to me playing with pads, i always did this to make grooming him easier. I do it myself.
I wish i could go back and see your questions as im anwsering them
Im new to this forum stuff and doing this on my phone is hard on the eyes.
Thanks for all the information.
I have read some but I missed some too.
I found this forum from Dogers FB post.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on May 12, 2018 11:06:55 GMT -7
Darlene, the Forum is best viewed on a mobile phone via the " desk top view" As shown in picture below, you would scroll down to the bottom of the screen to click on "Desktop". I recommend you reply to a post by going to the "Quick reply" typing area and NOT clicking the "Reply" link. Quick reply allows you to scroll up and down to a previous post and then back down to the " Quick Reply" typing area to continue your own post. A laptop, a tablet are, of course, much easier to deal with typing etc. if you have access to one. In the next post I will speak to the issues you brought up about Paco. I will also put all my questions at the end of the post to make it easier for you on a mobile phone.  |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on May 12, 2018 11:21:57 GMT -7
Darlene, at this point in time, I do not think surgery should be a consideration. Paco does have neuro diminishment in his back legs for sure. But he also still has excellent neuro functions...which means he has very good potential to self repair his damaged back leg nerves!!! Do contact your vet after you have read about the use of Rimadyl with a disc episode and the need to test for pain. NOBODY wants a dog taking Rimadyl one bit past the point the benefit of all painful spinal cord swelling is gone! All that is left then is to subject a dog to the serious adverse side effects. --- With t he backing off of gabapentin, Rimadyl should also be stopped to enable you to get an accurate sense if pain re-surfaces or if neuro function worsens. No pain, no neuro diminishment then no meds at all are needed. Here is the link on how Rimadyl works during a disc episode www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm
By definition Paco has deep pain sensation and so it makes no sense for anyone to bew pinching his back toes. That nightly pinching could cause too much movement of his back...not good for the early healing disc.
QUESTIONS:
1. Are you upping Pepcid AC to 10mgs 2x/day as a more aggressive, usual approach to stomach protection during a disc episode?
2. Can you set up a small 6 foot diameter fenced area to visually and physcially let Paco know no sniff festing allowed at potty time?
3. For how many days has Rimadyl been prescribed for Paco to take 18mgs twice a day?
4. Can you call vet and tell him you would like to also stop Rimadyl now that gabapentin is being backed off. You want to be able to quickly assess for pain. Rimadyl is not going to heal nerves. Its only job is to get rid of swelling in the spinal cord. No sense to be taking it IF, if, IF there is no more swelling.
5. You said "not in much pain" What to you see specifically that makes you think he is in pain. If he is in pain gabapentin should not be back off at this time!
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 12, 2018 11:49:02 GMT -7
1.I will up from ▲pepcid 5mg to 10 tonight before meal.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
18 ilbs
Rimadyl as of 5/2: 12mgs 2x/day for 7 days then 5/9 a stop to test for √pain/neuro loss
as of 5/9: 18mgs 2x/day for 7 days, then 5/16 stop to test for pain/neuro loss
gabapentin 100mgs ▼1x/day as of 5/11
Pepcid AC ▲10mgs 2x/day]
2.I will go to store after work tonight to get fence, i work till late tonight so hea hime with dad. I bet he doesn't give dad a issue.
Im only working weekends so someone can be home with him at this point.
2.Rimadyl was started 5/2 for 7 days at 12mg 2xs a day for 7 days after 7day check up vet prescribed 18 mg 2xs a day. He suggested weaning ogg Gabapentin [??] and seditives. At that point I had already stated weaning off gabapentin and was totally weaned off sedatives. I felt he didn't need it. I will call vet and ask about taking him off Rimadyl. . I know for a fact the Gabapentin should be weaned, i have major back issues so im familiar with that one.
4.I know he is in a little pain or sore cuz he moves carefully and doesn't try to lift backend. Hes not as active and just not himself.
This may sound crazy but Paco and i have a strong bond and I can tell what hes feeling or saying.
PS
Thankyou this is sooo much easier with desktop version.
Ty for all the information as well
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Post by Romy & Frankie on May 12, 2018 13:27:37 GMT -7
With moving carefully, not trying to lift his backend and being less active and not himself. It certainly sounds like Paco is in pain. Since this is the case, Paco should not be backing off the gabapentin. When a dog is in pain more time on the anti-inflammatory, pain meds and Pepcid is needed.
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 13, 2018 8:40:50 GMT -7
Thank you again for all your response. He wouldn't potty for dad so I rushed home from work at midnight and he went right away for me.
I took today off to get a dog pen for yard and have friends and neighbor's bring dogs over to pee in my yard. While I hide with Paco in house
Lol
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Post by Ann Brittain on May 13, 2018 9:39:23 GMT -7
Good idea to give Paco something to sniff to stimulate his peeing!
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 13, 2018 10:13:53 GMT -7
Sure beats carrying him half a block to neighbor's house to pee 4xs a day.... Praying I dont trip with him on limerock roads in the darkor get caught out with the coyotes so far away from home. I will let you all know if this works. Other country or potty shy dogs might be having same issues. Homemade sling works soooo much better than the fabric shopping bag sling. Paco does potty time much faster for me in the sling.  |
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on May 13, 2018 10:42:05 GMT -7
When putting Paco in the sling here is a better option for the all important keeping the back from moving too much. --- lay the sling out on the ground. --- Lift Paco, always maintaining his back to be horizontal to the ground while support both ends of his body. --- Set him down with the back legs going to the sling's leg openings. The figure-8 sling idea is a good one. Most male dogs prefer that type of sling. LIFTING and Carrying an IVDD dog   |
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 13, 2018 15:02:31 GMT -7
Update having neighbors dog pee on outdoor pee pen worked great. Paco peed in half as many steps. I did pull Spanish moss down and put a 2 handfuls in his 5foot fenced area as well. Its easier to haul a handful of moss to neighbors yard for potty incentive.
Never thought having neighbors dog pee on a brand new item would be such a perfect mother's day gift. Hopefully he will adjust to pee area and it will be in and out, back to rehab crate.
----
Nooo its not Paco.
Maybe after his crate rehab is over.
I do exactly what you listed, cept he takes about 10 to 20 steps during pee.. that we corrected today with the doggy playpen,i hope.
Its set up ready to go on gis next trip out to pee.
If it weren't for dogers list I would have been doing everything wrong. I have learned so much the past few days.
Im shocked my vet didn't know or advise me about this site... at minimum give me some lititure on dos and donts.
Thanks again
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Marjorie
Moderator~ 
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724 
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Post by Marjorie on May 14, 2018 5:45:56 GMT -7
Good news that your efforts have helped, Darlene. Thanks for letting us know. Keep up the good work with Paco.  |
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 14, 2018 5:57:30 GMT -7
Maybe I spoke to soon
No pee since 5/13 afternoon and no poo since 5/12 almost midnight.
He normally goes every day no issues but he takes 10 minutes at least and wants to be soo picky.
I want to stick to my 5foot area but i also dont want to give him some heath issues cuz im making hum use the pen area for pee and hes refused to do so last night 5/13 and this morning 5/14
He snifs a bit in pen but just looks over towards outside pen wagging his tail.
Maybe hes playing me a sucker till I give in and let him meander to potty.
Any thoughts would be appreciated?
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on May 14, 2018 6:37:30 GMT -7
I think you should stick with the pen a bit longer. Is the urine smell from the other dogs still fresh to encourage him to sniff and pee in the pen? It's so very important to protect the spine from too much movement or the damaged disc could re-tear and you'd be back to square one or worse.
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 14, 2018 7:22:36 GMT -7
I switched peed on moss this morning from Neighbor's yard but it rained here last night and this morning.
I agree, i will try pen again about 4 hours after first visit.
I was under the impression potty breaks.. 5 minutes every 4 hours during daytime. Does that sound correct?
I also noticed him doing stretching thing, similar to downwards dog yoga thing after I take him out of crate and supporting his hind end.
This is something hes done past few years on his own after a long nap or first thing in morning. Im a little concerned with him wanting to do this. I could use a little sedatives I guess.
Im going to call vet in a few anyways. I have some other questions
Looking back his back was likely bothering him. I never thought too much about it, figured old age, just like us were stiff in the morning ect.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on May 14, 2018 8:44:33 GMT -7
5 mins of taking footsteps even in a small area can be a lot of walking. So when you believe he will need to pee which for dogs is normally every 4-6 hours, carry him out to the fenced potty place. After a meal and drinking water he may need to pee sooner (more like 3-or 4 hrs. Give him a minute or two outside and if he does nothing, carry him back to his recovery suit and try again an hour later. It's all guess work in figuring out how fast Paco's body processes food/water. Be alert to the signs he's about to go pee and give the command to "go potty": sniffing, then circling and then about to squat/lift a leg. When he releases urine give lavish praise: Good Potty! Soon he will be able to pee on command. It is OK if Paco wants to stretch Is Paco still acting in same pain this weekend, today you reported? If YES, to the reported pain on 5/12 (moves carefully, not as active, just not himself), let us know what adjustments to pain meds your vet makes (name of pain med, mgs and frequency). And is the test for pain to go as scheduled on May 16 or will Rimadyl be extended a few more days? Remember it is on the stop of Rimadyl you would also stop all pain meds to get a prompt and accurate assessment about pain. We depend on Forum members to introduce us to your vet. In a short vet visit it is difficult for a vet to give every bit of information for home care that we can share here. Help your vet with our Crate Rest Recovery Process brochure for his tool box. His next IVDD dog will greatly benefit!    Print out our intro letter for your vet and order some free literature to help his next clients understand the importance of crate rest with a disc episode. Link for the letter and free literature: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/litorder.htm Don't forget you can educate while standing in line at the grocery store, post office, etc, by carrying some of our little business sized cards to give out when you meet owners of breeds prone to disc disease (doxie, beagle, cocker spaniel, Shih Tzus, Pekingese, Lhasa apso, Corgis, and poodle). |
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 14, 2018 11:15:41 GMT -7
While im waiting for Vet to call back and anwser some questions I had
this morning Acupuncture Vet calls. Feels benefits do out weigh risk to have him seen and moves his appointment up to tomorrow rather than end of month and asked to have his medical records emailed.
After i called regular Vet to email Pacos records for acupuncture regular Vet now wants to see him this afternoon, Regular Vet seen him last week and said take meds see ya in a month,he left riom and tech came back with meds. I didnt know as much then as i know now and I still have so much to learn.
I just want to do what is best for my dog. Maybe im over reacting but I feel sketchy about all this.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on May 14, 2018 15:08:58 GMT -7
Paco still has mild symptoms of weak legs, knuckling. He CAN move his back legs in a walking motion when sling supported even if his paws knuckle under
The purpose of acupuncture and laser therapy is to kickstart nerves to heal. Laser light therapy, acupuncture stimulate the nerve bundle. When the nervous system gets stimulated it can respond by growing nerve endings.
If you feel deeply that Paco needs one of these therapies, then seek out mobile vet who will come to your home. You have to make your decision based on transport risk versus will he continue to heal his nerves on his own as he started to do as you reported within two days of Rimadyl.
I would phone in specific observations what you see for neuro function to your regular vet. If you have seen any backward steps in neuro function, or staying the same or improving, specific observations of pain. For the vet visits of utmost value for things that just can't be taken care of over the phone, then you pad out the crate snug around his body with rolled up towels so his back does not shift during a corner or braking and with care carry him into the clinic.
-- If surgery is not a consideration for your family if at some point it would be indicated, what will the vet be finding out that would change the current treatment of STRICT rest and using meds till all the painful swelling has been resolved?
-- Nerves heal on their own--- there are no meds that heal a disc. Just like there are no meds that heal a broken arm...just non movement of the arm via a cast.
Let us know what the vet is deciding about the test for pain stop of Rimadyl on 5/16 and the pain (moving carefully, not active, not himself) you had reported here on May 12th. I can take anywhere from 7 to 30 days before an anti-inflammatory drug can resolve all the swelling.
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 15, 2018 16:53:14 GMT -7
Paco was seen at DMV who has experience treating IVDD with acupuncture today. This decision was not done easily.
After spending some time researching acupuncture and other ways to help Pacos body heal its self I decided the benefits out weigh the risk of transportation.
I will say did take into account that I was able to arrange transportation and the trip was only about 12 miles from our house.
Visit was almost 2 hours... 1 hour 45minutes with Vet and her assistant.
It was the calmest vet experience Paco has ever experienced.
If I didn't know better she drugged Paco and I at the door.
I want to give details if its ok but I have been awake since 3 am and family is asking whats for dinner.
Just one thing Paco isn't healed but positive differences in body stiffness when I move him and is in more relaxed state without drugs.
Ps Acupuncture Vet will be working along side with his Regular vet.
At this time all meds from regular vet staying same amd were adding some natural herbs to his diet.
After regular vet gets notes from todays visit and we will plan a phone or in person evaluation if necessary to reduce Rimadyl.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on May 15, 2018 17:07:58 GMT -7
Even the most experienced of holistic vets would not prescribe herbs when conventional meds are on board as they could be contraindicated.
When you get some sleep, we would love to hear all the details of the acupuncture. The acupunture effect may last for some hours or a day or so. Pain meds if you get them down his hatch provide more even control of pain. Let us now what you observe for the length of effect on Paco
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 16, 2018 9:31:09 GMT -7
I feel the most experienced Holistic Vets would only prescribe herbs if they feel comfortable that no interactions could occur.
I may be a little more receptive to herbal supplements than most due to my personal experience with herbal supplements that have benefited my health over the past 5 years.
Im very aware that interactions can and do occur. Thats why both client and doctor must share all details of past and current meds in addition to daily diet.
I was able to hear back from vet and he strongly recommend Paco remain on Rimadyl.
So hopefully Paco doesn't continue to only eat half his meals.
Im not overly concerned about the eating, Yet.
Somethings I read about Rimadyl have me concerned so Im trusting my Vet with eyes pealed.
Paco is a very picky eater at times. His poo is normal and no throwing up, well once just a little bit of carrot sunday morning so I remade his soft food without carrots until his eating is back to normal, just chicken with his kibble.
MsMilner Your right about the sleepy more relaxed state. He doesn't seem drugged like he was yesterday.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on May 16, 2018 11:52:42 GMT -7
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 16, 2018 15:07:28 GMT -7
Acupuncture vet supplements
Ligaplex II 5300 1 2×s daily * only giving once a day untill i know for certain hes doesn't have a reaction/allergy
Injury Remedy as needed for pain* hasn't needed it
Di Gu Pi San 2 pills 2xs a day* only giving once a day to test for allergy/reaction
Consumption grade Aloe juice 1tsp before meals
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
18 ilbs
Rimadyl as of 4/30 ER: 12mgs 2x/day for 7 days
as of 5/7 DVM: 18 mgs 2x/day for 24 days, then 6/4 stop to test for pain
Di Gu Pi San added 5/16
gabapentin 100mgs 1x/day as of 5/11
Pepcid AC 10mgs 2x/day]
When Paco last seen regular Vet 5/7 he prescribed Rimadyl 18mg 2 xs daily for a month. That is when Vet is supposed to see him for recheck.
Keep in mind he has been on Rimadyl since day of injury 4/30, yes that is corrected injury date sorry i started his daily notes by days of week not dates,ER vet sent me home with a weeks worth of Rimadyl 12.5 mg 2xs daily.
Later that afternoon I took Paco to see his Reg vet thinking he was going to be put down.
Reg vet said he has seen this often and its a possibility with meds and rest he can pull through.
All his meds ER vet prescribed look good keep taking them added sedative. Paco was already almost coma like when at home so I didnt use both sedatives together [Trazodone 25mg Every 12 to 24 hours. Acepromazine 2.5mg to 5mg As needed ].
When Regular Vet rechecked him on 5/7 thats when he gave the Rx for 18mg 2xs a day till 6/4 when he wanted a recheck.
I hope this answers your questions. Thanks for all efforts and time you put into helping so many of us.
Posted by Darlene & Pacoabout an hour ago
Paco finally ate all his breakfast at 6pm so like yesterday he probably wont eat dinner. Unless Dad makes steak then I would bet 100.00 he would eat it!
Posted by Darlene & Pacoabout an hour ago
I am thinking of putting Pacos crate 3 ft off floor.
I have 3 messed up disk in my lower back and I am finding it dangerous to get paco out of crate and stand up supporting him correctly.
Does it freak dogs out to be up that high?
Anyone else come across this?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on May 16, 2018 17:21:54 GMT -7
Darlene a very sturdy table and a rubber traction mat under the crate to prevent inching makes placing the crate on a table doable. For example the dining room table where he can have a view out the sliding glass door. Many dogs do like being up higher to survery their homel Just so you know about Di Gu Pi San, a listing of ingredients: herbsmithrx.com/di-gu-pi-san/ 1) Herbal supplements can prevent the function of NSAIDS or make their side effects worse. The most commonly used herbs that interfer with NSAID function are ginkgo, ginseng, garlic, chamomile, ginger and devil's claw (Harpagophytum) 2) "NSAIDs have significant drug interactions with glucocorticoids (gastrointestinal ulceration is potentiated by glucocorticoids via inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis), benzodiazepines, salicylate containing herbs (meadowsweet or willow), gingko, garlic, ginger, ginseng, and aminoglycosides. ... Consider a minimum of a 7-day washout period between NSAIDs and either glucocorticoids or other NSAIDs." SMALL ANIMAL PAIN MANAGEMENT CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY Katrina R. Viviano, PhD, DVM secure.aahanet.org/eweb/images/AAHAnet/phoenix2009proceedings/pdfs/01_scientific/025_SMALL%20ANIMAL%20PAIN%20MANAG.pdfWhat was the name of the "two" sedataives you did not want to give toether?? |
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Post by Darlene & Paco on May 16, 2018 18:49:59 GMT -7
Any tips on safely getting dog through crate door. Getting him in is pretty smooth but getting him out is a challenge. I feel crate im using is almost too big for him 36"L 25.5"W 26.5"H
Its mostly Hight thats to big if/when he tries to jump onto sides
Seditives of concern
Trazodone 25mg Every 12 to 24 hours
Acepromazine 2.5mg to 5mg As needed
Ty for the information about herbals
I wont be giving any more till I have time to research it and address any concerns with Acupuncture Vet.
Thanks again for your diligence.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify
18 ilbs
Rimadyl as of 4/30 ER: 12mgs 2x/day for 7 days
as of 5/7 DVM: 18 mgs 2x/day for 24 days, then 6/4 stop to test for pain
Di Gu Pi San added 5/16; stopped 5/16 contraindicated gensing with a NSAID!
gabapentin 100mgs 1x/day as of 5/11
Pepcid AC 10mgs 2x/day]
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Post by Pauliana on May 16, 2018 21:56:05 GMT -7
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on May 17, 2018 4:57:41 GMT -7
To respond to your question about the size of the crate, it should only be large enough for Paco to stand up, turn around and lie down with legs comfortably extended. As for the height, you can cover the top with the towel or blanket, bringing that towel/blanket down to Paco's height when standing. That way, hopefully he won't try to jump up as he'll be underneath the blanket and won't be able to see anything.
If you decide not to change the crate to top opening as Pauliana recommended, you can lower the ceiling of the crate by cutting a piece of cardboard the size of the top opening, punch holes in the corners and tie it down into the top of the crate. You can try slowly pulling Paco out of the crate by pulling the top layer of bedding that he's on. We recommend fleece for the top layer of the bedding.
We usually only see Trazodone OR Acepromazine given separately, not together. In some cases, Acepromazine works the opposite and can cause excitement in a dog. So do be aware of that. I would be very hesitant, too, to give those together and would only give one or the other, whichever seems to work best for him, when and if needed to calm him. There are other more natural ways of calming a dog in a crate that you can also try. I'll outline them in the next post.
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