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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 9, 2017 10:27:36 GMT -7
My heart is breaking. I need some support - I don't know of anyone who has gone through this. Thursday, August 3, 2017 Jazzy started acting odd. Out of the blue she started tucking her tail and whining randomly. When my fiance went to touch her, she would tense her stomach up and cry out in pain if he touched it. We thought she was constipated. I rushed home from work that same day and took her to our normal vet. When we got to the vet, our Dr. said she wasn't constipated because she was still eating/drinking. He then start to move her head and feel her back and said it was some kind of stiff and sore back. He prescribed her Nouvox and Robaxin. After several doses of her medicine she became super wobbly on her hind legs (most of you describe it as the "drunk" walk) and we asked around and found out that her muscle relaxers (the Robaxin) could be causing it so we took her off of them. Over the course of the weekend, she got worse - dragging her feet behind her and only barely walking when she got excited. [Moderator's note: please do not modify 13 lbs Novox as of 8/3 : for 14 days Robaxin STOPPED Tramadol 12.5mgs 2x/day ] Tuesday, August 8, 2017 I begged our vet to see us but the Dr. wasn't in so I contemplated taking Jazzy straight to the emergency vet hospital because she wasn't able to pee/poop. I called for a price quote from the emergency vet and they basically told me that we would get x-rays and those started at the cost of $1200. When I got home from work, Jazzy finally peed on her own! I wasn't too worried so I waited until the next morning (8/9/17) to take her to the vet because if she required x-rays out vet could do them for around $100. At this point, I had read enough stuff online to know to crate rest her immediately. I spent ALL of 8/8/17, in the evening, making sure Jazzy was geared up and ready to be on crate rest. We even started using slings and she was peeing and pooping on her own using the sling outside!!! Flash forward to today (Wednesday 8/9/17) at 9am we got Jazzy girl to the vet and the Dr. told me to set her down on the floor. Immediately, he got all stern and quiet. He said , "that's not good. She can't stand up at all". From there, he pressed hard on her feet and she still has that deep tissue pain (I think that is what they call it?) and he said that was good but there is a disk pressing against her spinal cord and we were given two options: getting the surgery done that we cannot afford (and our families can't afford to help us and we are already overwhelmed by our bills right now) or pray that 8 weeks of crate rest will work. He said the disk can rupture at any moment and sever the spinal cord and she will never walk again. Then he said that if she were to need a wheelchair and for us to express her bladder - we could not simply come home from work and let her out to the bathroom...he said it would be an all day care that would be needed. I'm scared because I am a full time student and my fiance and I both have to work.I am losing sleep, of course. The thought of my 3 year old, young Jazzy not walking or running again literally makes my heart hurt. The first two years of her life she was confined in a small area with a not so great owner that allowed her to lay in her own filth for days causing rashes on her. She has already been through hell and now this. The crazy thing is - she just woke up like this. She only jumps on/off our couch onto a carpeted floor and does the two back porch steps. That's it. Now I am blaming myself because she deserves better and she may never walk again all because we can't afford a surgery. It isn't fair to her. We did research on organizations that may be able to help financially but they won't help because her life isn't in danger. No animal insurance covers pre-existing conditions. We literally cannot afford to owe anyone else. And a GoFundMe page wouldn't raise enough money in enough time. We started crate rest August 8, 2017. She is now on Tramadol and Nouvox for two weeks but after that, the Dr. says they won't help anymore than what they already have. Please help. Support and advice is much appreciated. Jazzy is 13lbs.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,538
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 9, 2017 11:26:39 GMT -7
Emily, welcome to Dodgerslist. We are glad you’ve joined us on the support Forum ! While we are not veterinarians, we have lots to share with you. Our main goal is to help you become educated about IVDD so you can better work with the vet you’ve hired or hire a new knowledgable IVDD vet, protect your dog and give proper care during this episode, but also to be able to live many happy years ahead with the disease your Jazzy was born with. Knowledge, is indeed, the power to fight this IVDD enemy and win! To recognize when a veterinary professional is not comfortable in his IVDD knowledge. Jazzy can heal!!! You may want to print this out as it is your road map for the next 8 weeks of conservative treatment: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htm OK let’s address the things that your dog needs help with right away. ---- Call your vet and verify that Jazzy CAN take Pepcid AC. If he says no health issue than go to grocery store to buy 10mgs pills you will split down to 5mgs doses. 5mgs 2x/day All anti-inflammatories can damage the stomach. Proactive vets don't wait til there is nausea, vomit, diareah leading to serious bleeding ulcers from the extra stomach acids XXX causes. Pepcid AC (famotidie) blocks the production of acid by acid-producing cells in the stomach.The usual dose of Pepcid AC (famotidine) with a disc episode for doxies is 5mgs 2x/day (0.44mg mg per pound every 12 hours.) Get at the grocery store but FIRST do ask your vet in this very, very particular way: Is there a medical/health reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC (famotidine)? Understand your pet's meds, knowledge IS an important safety factor: 1) www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.html and 2) marvistavet.com/famotidine.pmlBecause it will help us work together, just a few questions including what you have observed so our comments can be specific to Jazzy: Because it will help us work together, please share a bit more information: ★ Let us know you are on the same page about STRICT rest as we are. The hallmark component of conservative treatment is the crate rest part. With little blood supply discs are much slower to form good scar tissue than it takes a blood rich broken bone to heal. That 6 weeks of a cast for a broken arm to heal is similar to the recovery suite being a kind of cast for the disc. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong scar tissue to form. Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htmSTRICT means: - no laps - no couches - no baths - no sleeping with you - no chiro therapy - no dragging or meandering at potty times. Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog's back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! ★5 Is there still currently pain - shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move, tight tense tummy, can't find a comfortable position. Arched back. Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight, head held high or nose to the ground. Not their normal perky selves? Full pain relief is expected in 1 hour and stays that way dose to dose. If not in control your vet needs to know asap to adjust meds. ★6 Eating and drinking OK? Poops OK - normal firmness & color -no dark or bright red blood? ★7 Currently can she move the legs at all? or wag the tail when you specifically do some happy talk? ★8 Can she specifically sniff and squat and then release urine which is bladder control - OR- do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted which are indication of an overflowing bladder and loss of control?
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 9, 2017 11:50:43 GMT -7
Thank you for your reply Paula! I will call the vet after work and ask about Pepcid and I will also update the dosages of the medication she is currently on!
I do plan on strict crate rest as you have outlined! She began that on 8/8/17 and she is completely fine with it. I have two kennels - both with soft/firm memory foam in them like the Dodgerlist recommended and it has the trash bag, pee pad, and blanket layers. She loves it! I keep her in one small one at night and a slightly larger and heavier one on the couch that she is only in when I am sitting on the couch. She seems to be VERY well behaved on the couch one - she doesn't get overly excited that I am next to her. She just naps and seems very comforted that I am next to the kennel.
She is not experiencing any pain - she is a bit slow to turn around inside of the kennel but she doesn't whine or breathe heavy. She just slowly turns and lays down.
She is eating and drinking perfectly. She has been pooping though she doesn't arch her back like she normally would if her hind legs were working. Her tail lifts up and the poop falls out but it has been outside like she is stil in control of where she is pooping. Poop is normal in color and consistency.
She can move her legs mainly when she is excited. She can wag her tail when she is excited. I am trying to cut out things that make her excited but me getting home makes her happy so that is when I see her moving [legs] them slightly. She also had that deep tissue pain earlier at the vet when he tried to see if she reacted to pinching the toes. The feeling seems weak but it is still slightly there.
She has been releasing her bladder outside with the sling and she slightly tries to squat so she doesn't pee on herself. Overnight (the night of 8/8/17) she got a drop of pee on the pee pad in her nighttime kennel but she may have gotten excited when she saw me in the morning to let her out - I should have checked if it was wet.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,538
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 9, 2017 12:21:22 GMT -7
Emily, Jazzy is a very good candidate to recover under conservative treatment!! With your reading, absorbing and applying what you learn, I'm confident she will be in good hands with you! Jazzy might be in some pain with your reporting two signs: slow to move when turning, reluctant to move into the poop position of arching back. Pain meds not prescribed for every 8 hours (3x/day) are likely to not give full pain control. So if you are suspicious of pain, call the vet with your observations and advocate for adjustments to the meds. We look forward to your details on mgs, and frequency when you get back home. Obviously Sarah is way past having DPS, she has some leg movement!!! So no need to even try that DPS toe pinching thing. This is the typical order in which neuro function will come back in. 1. √Deep Pain Sensation (DPS) (Only take the word of a specialist, as many general vets wrongly identify) 2. √Tail wagging with joy at seeing you or getting a treat or meal. 3.√Bladder and bowel control verified with the "sniff and pee" test. 4. √Leg Movement, and then __?_ability to move up into a standing position, and then _?_wobbly walking. 5. Being able to walk with more steadiness and properly place the feet. 6. Ability to walk unassisted and perhaps even run. More info on nerve healing: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingnerves.htmGaining a sense of why and for how long meds are used, will be important for your piece of mind. No one knows how long to use meds. GASP! WHAT? Yup, so most vets will give it a guess with a 7 or 14 day course of an anti-inflammatory drug like Norvox. With the stop of it, you at home are to assess if there is still spinal cord swelling. If there is pain then, another course of Norvox is needed. It may take 7-30 days of several courses before all the painful inflammation is gone. Here is our article on anti-inflammatories, great to have under your belt when adovating, understanding what your vet is saying, or monitoring Sarah: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htmNow about nerves, no one knows how long it will take the body to self heal nerves. Norvox or any other medication will NOT heal nerves. Often with nerve healing we need to think more in terms of months rather than days/weeks. The focus with conservative treatment is all about the disc healing in 8 weeks. Nerve functions may or may not come back in that short of time.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 9, 2017 15:43:22 GMT -7
Okay so I didn't realize how the display name worked and I put my middle name "Sarah" instead of my doxie's name. The doxie is Jazzy - sorry about that!
When I got home Jazzy was wagging her tail to see me - no messes in the kennel either! She didn't go potty right away. She went at 11:30am and wouldn't go again until 6:30pm (today is 8/9/17) - when she went she actually squatted and her tail reacted as well! The tail normally curves upward but just now it kind of went straight shaped.
Her medications are as followed:
Robaxin 1/8 tablet 2x daily (We STOPPED it after three doses believing that these muscle relaxers were the reason she couldn't walk) - she is NO LONGER on the Robaxin (8/3-8/5)
Novox 1 tablet once a day - currently on (8/3-?)
Tramadol 1/4 tablet twice a day - currently on (8/6-?)
She is still eating and drinking ok!
Question: I am wondering if I am doing the sling correctly. I have seen the photos of the sweater sling but I have a long ace bandage tied and it goes around her abdomen area - is that okay? It doesn't have the leg holes.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,538
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 9, 2017 16:10:25 GMT -7
Emily, Jazzy is on a very, light dose of Tramadol 12.5 mgs at 2x/day. For a 13 pound dog almost as if she is not getting any pain reliever. You know Jazzy's personality best to know if she is off, that is in pain. Reluctant to move certain ways, slow or moving gingerly are signs of pain just as these are: ◻︎shivering-trembling ◻︎yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎slow to move ◻︎tight tense tummy ◻︎arched back ◻︎ears pinned back ◻︎ restless, can't find a comfortable position ◻︎slow or reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions ◻︎not their normal perky selves A belly sling can be the ACE bandage, belt, long scar. The idea is to use the sling as back up should her butt tip over. Avoid pulling up on the tummy area, avoid the fulcrum effect. You can easily make a sling that holes for the legs. Take an old worn sheet, beach towel. With scissors cut two holes for the legs. This kind of sling will avoid the fulcrum effect and may be better support for the butt for some dogs. The figure-8 sling is another idea:
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 9, 2017 16:21:21 GMT -7
So should we up the dosage of tramadol?
Also, she isn't really able to walk on her own so we were using the ace bandages to basically do that for her - she walks around and we hold her butt up so it doesn't tip over. Maybe I need to find some videos of this!
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Post by Pauliana on Aug 9, 2017 22:06:40 GMT -7
Hi Emily! Let your Vet know the signs of pain you are seeing and ask for an adjustment to the Tramadol. The dose being given is for a much smaller dog. Also Tramadol is short acting and doesn't last in the system for 12 hours. It works better given every 8 hours (3x/day). Please read this for more background on Pain medications for IVDD. dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htmMake sure when you sling walk Jazzy that you keep her back straight.. Healing thoughts and prayers..
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 10, 2017 6:04:37 GMT -7
8/10/17 update: Jazzy is still fighting hard! I was laying awake all night and fighting the urge to get up before our normal "wake-up" time because I am trying to keep our schedule but Jazzy has always gone potty right before we go to bed and she didn't. She peed for the last time at 6:30pm on 8/9/17 and didn't pee again until 5:30am on 8/10/17. I think that we need to get her drinking more than she is but she keeps telling me she doesn't want the water. We plan on doing those frozen broth cubes and we have already been mixing water into her food which she likes! I also think she doesn't want to pee because she is still slightly squatting and I am sure she is still in some pain. On a bright note, there hasn't been any messes in the kennel!During my break I will call the vet about uping the dose of Tramadol. I am also going to ask about the (Pepcid?) to protect the GI tract - I got off work too late yesterday and the vet had closed before I could call. We've add rolled up blankets in the perimeter of her two crates and I think she likes that too - she was kind of flopping around and unbalanced when trying to get comfortable and now she has a soft bumper that her hips can lean against. I am afraid to keep her back too straight when using the sling. Her poor hind paws just drag the concrete (she prefers concrete to grass). And when she stops walking I don't want her weight to be on her curled up hind paws...it just looks so uncomfortable. We are feeding her a teaspoon of pureed pumpkin daily to combat her constipation from the Tramadol. She won't push the poop out (I am sure it hurts her to do so) so we stand outside with her in her sling and wait for it to fall out on its own. She is still in control of it - she won't even attempt to poop inside of the house so this is still good news! I did want to ask - what are we wanting to happen in the end? The vet said that with crate rest we can only hope that the disk pushing on her spine will back away from it. It just seems like it would push against the spine again eventually or not back away from the spine like we seem to want. I also read somewhere else that it won't move away from the spine, it will just build scar tissue around it. I am still so worried - my stomach is in knots all day at work and I can't sleep. I am physically ill because I am so worried for Jazzy. When can we expect to see progress? I know it is too soon to be asking that but I just want to put my mind at rest that she has a good chance at fully recovering without surgery. I am so scared
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,538
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 10, 2017 7:21:41 GMT -7
Emily just to reconfirm the Tramadol. It is a much higher dose than 12.5 mgs (1/4) tablet AND that to give full pain relief vets are seeing based on studies that the prescription should be for every 8 hours (3x/day) Of course owners should never self prescribe. So the information below is so that you can best advocate for full pain relief.The usual in controlling pain is to Rx at the higher end of the mg range AND promptly every 8 hours. So you might be looking for 13lbs/5.9kg dog to be Rx'd a full 50 mgs tablet every 8 hours. Tramadol is the general analgesic. Gabapentin covers nerve pain and Roboxin covers muscle contraction pain. For many dogs all three sources of pain need to be covered and the reason at least 2 of those pain relievers are used if not all three of them. The expected outcome after 8 weeks of conservative treatment The expectation with conservative treatment is that the body will be able to re-absorb and shrink back any offending part of the disc pressing on the spinal cord. So a vet will be prescribing a course of Norvox and at the end of the course, you will be assessing for pain. If pain should still surface then the vet knows to prescribe another course. It may take anywhere from 7-30 days before all of the painful spinal cord inflammation is gone. Pain= another course of anti-inflammatory + all pain meds back on board plus Pepcid AC No Pain= no need of any meds...just finish out the 8 weeks of crate rest for the disc to heal. Davies Veterinary Specialists confirm what we see all the time on the Forum: "Although surgical treatment is often preferred, 4 out of 5 dogs that are weak or paralysed in their back legs will make a good recovery without surgery provided that they have good sensation in the affected limbs." vetspecialists.co.uk/factsheets/Neurology_Facts/Slipped_Disc.htmlJazzy not only has "good sensation" called deep pain sensation (DPS) but she is way, way further down the list with your reporting seeing some leg movement. Jazzy will pick up on your stresses and internalize them thinking something is her fault. ...not good for your recovering patient! Dogs watch your every subtle body movement to detect if things are right in the world as you are her pack leader. This simple breathing technique can help YOU move your focus to the positive and and maintain the positive, put a stop to the nightmarish movies from replaying ad nauseum in your brain.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 10, 2017 8:04:20 GMT -7
My hope is that Jazzy & I can educate our normal vet. He is amazing but he clearly has never experienced this.
I am sorry for all of the questions but I am trying to educate myself and my hope is that (if she fully recovers from conservation treatment) I can print out this thread and always have it to refer back to and to use in educating friends/family - all of which also have never experienced this. With that being said, I have a few questions that I have tried to look around for and haven't quite gotten them answered.
Are there other health issues that are caused by IVDD? I read a heartbreaking post (it was "Living in Fear of IVDD) and she said her doxie eventually developed an enlarged heart. Is that something that IVDD could have caused?
Does IVDD shorten their lifespan at all?
Do they do more and more damage (permanent damage) each time they have an episode? I've been told that the older they get, the less chance of recovering they have - is that true?
Are multiple episodes common? I know that would just differ from doxie to doxie but I didn't know if this could have possibly just been a freak occurrence.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Aug 10, 2017 8:08:05 GMT -7
Hi Emily. I'm just another member, like you, but have been through what you're going through a couple of times, including right now, so I can tell you you're lucky to have found this site as it's the only IVDD community that I've located in the world, and the moderators do know what they're talking about, and from experience. Jazzy is super cute and I like that you've jumped right into the crate rest. And I concur that, since he has not gone down the scale of bad neuro signs, that he is most certainly a good candidate for conservative/meds treatment as opposed to surgery which is, to me, an absolute last resort and only if absolutely required.
I think you're doing great for Jazzy, and know how hard and particularly stressful this particular time is for you as his really just happened and your in the process of adapting to the situation. One thing, and I say this just as a member, not as one of the moderators, who are infinitely more tactful than myself, I didn't particularly like your general DVMs response stating the disk "can sever the spinal cord" absent surgery, which would indeed be horrific, but I don't find that either a kind bed side manner or even medically accurate. I deal with a neurologist for my dog's IVDD, not a DVM, who tend to be either vaguely familiar with the condition, it's proper treatment and it's perils, or not at all. A neuro consult, if you have one locally, is a good recommendation, of course weighing such a visit against having to travel with him while he's in the early stages of the condition. Just something to think about, might be worth a neuro visit in a couple of weeks when he's stronger.
But keep it up!!! Jazzy is so cute and he needs u to be his care giver and advocate right now. And I know how rough it is, believe me. If you click on the conservative link, and look for Robert/Oliver on the first page, you'll have good identification with what I've had to wrestle with over the past three weeks. But my Oliver is recovering well.
Best wishes, rob
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 10, 2017 8:19:01 GMT -7
Rob & Oliver,
Thank you for your reply! It has been so lonely prior to finding Dodgerslist and I am so thankful for you, the moderators, and other owners experiencing this. I am so sorry to hear that you are having to go through this again. I can't imagine but it is what we have been dealt Jazzy is so worth it.
I have to share in your discomfort that our normal vet made comments such as he did. I believe his comments were purely from lack of knowledge of doxies and IVDD. I do like him but I am thinking Jazzy could really use someone with a history of this kind of thing. I know we have run into a few issues over the phone already when calling around to different vets - I have been judged several times for not getting her into surgery immediately but we just don't have that kind of money, especially if it isn't a 100% permanent fix.
Jazzy and I are battling this together, side by side. I am stressed to the max but I am remaining calm when around her. She is taking everything like a champ and I couldn't be more proud of her. I am concerned about her pain and if her normal vet wants to argue about doing something more for it, we will be getting a second opinion elsewhere. I am starting to become more aware of the fact she is in some pain - thanks to the list of symptoms provided by the moderators.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Aug 10, 2017 8:56:30 GMT -7
Let me tell you about vets, I can't stand half of them. They're concerned largely about liability and upselling. The moderators and Linda Stowe, the founder know me well, so while they won't say this expressly, I can and will. It is up to us to DEMAND certain things, for starters being the proper meds. As Paulina said, the Tramadol, which my dog was on for a week, must be administered three times a day and every eight hours as it's short acting so we do this like clockwork to ensure our dog feels no pain. Feeling no pain is an important part of addressing the initial acute stage of IVDD, as they must be comfortable for the healing to really begin. If ur vet won't prescribe this as stated, go to another vet or the vet hospital. The $1200 cost for a scan had to be for an MRI, not an x-ray, and an MRI should really only be done if you're going to have the IVDD surgery, otherwise, even neurologists will tell u that if "it seems like a disk problem", but he's able to do some walking even wobbly, you can give conservative treatment a real chance to work. Doesn't sound like that was properly explained to you, and frankly, that's how some hospitals push business. They take this expensive scan (same scan is $3000 here in NYC), show you a bulging disk, which we already know exists and they tell you fearful things like "if we don't operate immediately, his spinal cord may sever".
In any case, don't even get me started on general vets. Here in NYC, we have an amazing neurologist who I trust implicitly, and if you read my thread, even he was pushing surgery (light pushing), but was conversational and acquiesced to my desire to give med treatment a chance as Oliver was really "down" and couldn't barely walk initially, which was super traumatizing to me. But I advocated that we give meds a few days and my own compromise was that I decided to let him stay in the hospital for 3 days, and we kept the conversation open. But on day 3, as he had some neuro functioning, not walking well yet but some movement, I was already resolved to take him home, and when I got there, Oliver was actually able to walk some, albeit like a drunken sailor (no disrespect to sailors.). So I made the right decision and 3 plus weeks later, Oliver's walk is absolutely normal but I'm doing strict crate rest for the whole 8 weeks. The point of this long post is to really stress the importance of both good information (which you will get on this site, and reading some of the other threads will also be instructive for you) and for you to be a strong, tough, "I don't take no for an snwer" advocate for Jazzy. Sounds like u got him as a rescue, so you've already saved him from the worst of it. Now it's just learning about this condition.
Keep us apprised. Rob
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Post by Julie & Perry on Aug 10, 2017 8:57:48 GMT -7
Emily, when you ask about pepcid ac/famotidine I'd ask your vet in a certain way, "Is there any medical reason Jazzy can't take pepcid?".
That's because if you just ask if she needs it, many vet's who aren't familiar with IVDD will say no.
They aren't knowledgeable enough to know that stress and antiinflammatories/steroids produce extra stomach acid which can lead to ulcers. Pepcid protects against that possibility.
As to life span, my dog is 12 1/2 and has been diagnosed with IVDD since 3 and is still going strong.
Some dogs, like mine, have multiple episodes. Others don't. It's impossible to know. Just take all the precautions you can.
As for pain control, push hard. It's difficult to disagree with a doctor, I know. But you know Jazzy best. Pain will stop her from healing.
You are doing a great job of advocating for her!!
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 10, 2017 9:10:11 GMT -7
Update on Jazzy's meds: vet said that we are okay to increase her ▲Tramadol up to 1/2 a tablet twice a day and said to keep Norvox where it is currently. He said to call back if no change in her comfort. As far as the ✚Pepcid, he said there is no medical reason she cannot have that and he said many people do use it for their dogs but he said he was a little confused at to why we would need it since Jazzy is not on steroids. He said that is my choice but he would recommend leaving the GI Tract alone since Norvox is such a mild inflammatory medication.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify 13 lbs Novox as of 8/3 : for 14 days Tramadol ▲25mgs 2x/day ✚Pepcid AC 5mgs 2x/day]
I guess this is a good time to ask: in the event that we need more Tramadol, is it true we can get it cheaper at CVS Pharmacy? I am currently paying $30 for two weeks worth of the Tram./Norv.
Vet has already said he wouldn't have an issue prescribing more if I felt Jazzy needed more but I just think it may be cheaper elsewhere?
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Post by Pauliana on Aug 10, 2017 9:49:45 GMT -7
Hi Emily, Many pharmacy's do carry Tramadol and other meds for dogs for $4 but you would need a prescription from your vet the next time you need it. dodgerslist.com/literature/IVDDcourse/medications_used.htmlNSAIDS can do just as much damage to the stomach and GI tract as Steroids. Pepcid AC should be given 30 minutes prior to the Norvox and again 12 hours later. It is better to be proactive in protecting the stomach! Some Vets want to wait until damage happens, which makes no sense at all.. You are doing so well learning about IVDD.. The more you know the better,that helps to take the panic away.. Tyler had surgery over 4 years ago when he woke up paralyzed but he has had several episodes since and we used conservative treatment each time and he always recovers very well.. He will be 8 in November.. When he has an episode, it isn't a panic situation because I know how to take care of him and know he will recover and we will get back to our good times again.. Conservative treatment works! There are some dogs that have one episode their entire life..and others that have multiple episodes. We just take precautions as best we can.. Believe everything will be ok...and keep telling that to Jazzy.. Tell her Mom has everything under control!
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 10, 2017 10:06:00 GMT -7
I appreciate all the reassurance! Do you know if those stores listed in the link also sell novox? Also, do you know if other health issues are caused by IVDD? Or, do you know if they cause more permanent damage with each episode? I am more calm than I was yesterday thanks to this thread - I just hope she doesn't have to spend most of her life inside of a kennel for crate rest
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,538
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 10, 2017 10:31:53 GMT -7
Emily, thank you for the questions. Many lurk and can’t ask, others have not yet thought to ask questions…so this discussion is a valuable one. All of our comments come from the Dodgerslist website www.dodgerslist.com where the articles have been written by neuros or other veterinary professionals, other articles have been written in collaboration to vet for accuracy by an appropriate veterinary professional. Reading threads on the Forum can be helpful to see how vets handle meds, how owners learn to cope, etc…. all things can help you to not feel like you are the only one dealing with a disc episode. Let me also thank Rob and Julie speaking up about their personal insights… being helpful members. IVDD does not cause other diseases and does not shorten life span. At 17 years old my doxie had an excellent annual exam report of good health. Another of my doxies lived to 18. Just recently Richard’s Pogo celebrated his 19th: www.dodgerslist.com/monthstory/feb04.htm Other diseases like cancer, heart issues happen but are not related to IVDD causing them. Each disc episode is different. Can be a different or the same disc. Can happen slowly or very fast. Can cause mild symptoms of pain only. Can cause very severe signs of permanent paralysis. So the ability to recovery all depends on the severity of the disc episode. All 27 discs do have the potential to prematurely age to the point they are no longer flexible and cushioning the back’s vertebrae as a dog moves. I had one dog who at age one had surgery and never another disc episode her entire life of 16 years. Other dogs as you have read can have multiple episodes. That is the nasty part of this disease, it is so unpredictable. This requires us all be be educated, be prepared to know what to do, how discuss things and understand what a vet is saying and able to ask good questions. Vertebrae illustration The neck C1-7, Chest T1-13, the low back L1-7 Let’s give vets a break. We don’t expect our our doctors to know every single detail about all diseases in the world for just one species, the human one—that’s why we seek a 2nd opinion when our health issue does not get better. So it goes not likely vets can know for all the species they see (birds, reptiles, dogs, cats, hamsters, farm animals, etc.) they will have in-depth knowledge of every disease for each species. Just like for any profession, a person’s personal experience with situations builds their knowledge and confidence. Here at Dodgerslist since 2002, I’m guessing by now at least 10,000+ dogs and what their vets prescribed have passed through here. So while what we observe is not scientific proof, you know not a placebo-controlled, double-blind study, it is just our observations of anecdotal reporting. Still from our vantage point we see definite patterns which align with the IVDD knowledgeable vets we follow on what works and does not work. Wish there could be a large-scale, multi-institutitional, placebo-controlled, double-blind study to give all vets access to much needed evidenced based treatment information. But that’s not going to happen as there is no money in a conservative study— crate rest is free and the medicines are relatively cheap. Don’t get me wrong there are plenty of times surgery should be a consideration and thankfully now a days there are very skilled surgeons to do this most delicate and exacting of surgeries. Vets know they can’t know everything. They ought to be open to learning new things. They ought to be open to considering what an owner brings to the table. Vets ought to be open to working as a team with the owner in helping a dog. If an owner is not pleased, then there is no shame in going for a 2nd opinion. There are plenty of general DVMs out there who happen to have experience under their belt about successfully treating IVDD. Certainly neuro (ACVIM) or ortho (ACVS) specialists deal everyday with controlling pain and are to be consulted during conservative treatment when a local DVM is not comfortable in using pain meds. Conservative treatment can’t go forward if pain is not fully controlled. Owners can't properly care for a dog hurting and pain actually deters the healing process. Emily, I LOVE the idea you are wanting to give your vet tools of more information so that his future IVDD clients can benefit. We'd like all members to tell their vet about this Forum and share how Dodgerslist has helped you care for your dog. Just ask Linda for some free literature. Our brochures for your vet would make an excellent addition to his toolbox for educating future clients. Don't leave the house w/o the small cards… you never know when you meet an owner of breeds prone to disc disease (Dachshunds, Beagles, Poodles, Spaniels, Shih Tzus, Pekingese, and Chihuahuas are most affected) Link for our intro letter and free literature are at this link: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/litorder.htm NOVOX is the brand name with the active ingredient of carprofen. Other brands are RIMADYL (carprofen), Quellin (carprofen). The $4 generic med programs sells the generic carprofen rather than the more expensive brand name. Switching to a different NSAID with a different active ingredient would require a 4-7 day washout. So that would not be a good idea for Jazzy. You may find this little card helpful to carry with you. D/l here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/MedCard.pdf It takes many sources of income for a vet to keep his doors open. One of which is the small pharmacy he maintains inventory for in his clinic. To write you a prescription to a different pharmacy would be doing you a very nice favor requiring your appreciation of his willingness to loose that source of profit.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 10, 2017 10:57:24 GMT -7
There is so much needed and useful information in that post Paula. Thank you for all of it. I have ordered a few literature items so that I can pass them around. I am sure my vet is going to be really interested in our recovery process when we go in for vaccinations this December (hopefully we won't have to see him before that) and I have a feeling he is really going to be surprised to see Jazzy girl walking around. He is a great vet and honestly, he tries to do everything as cheap as possible not for him but for the customers. I appreciate him so much and he was on board with the idea of crate rest, understanding that we are on a budget, and he told us the risks based on the knowledge that he has. I do not harbor bad feelings for that and Jazzy is going to show him what a fighting like a girl really means! Also, I did not even think about him profiting for the medications. I would like to keep his doors open when you put it like that so we will stick to getting her meds there!
Do you still think I should get Pepcid for Jazzy? We will begin her new dosage of Tramadol tonight.
My fiance texted me and said he was home for his break and Jazzy wouldn't go potty for him. That will make it 11 hours since she has gone to the bathroom (that is just granting that she will go for me when I get home in a couple of hours). She has to be dehydrated, that is all I can figure. There isn't any messes in her kennel and she won't take much water when we offer it (we don't leave water in the cage when we aren't home). Thoughts? I feel so needy LOL but I cannot express how much more I am at ease thanks to Dodgerslist.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,538
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 10, 2017 11:16:17 GMT -7
Sounds like you and your vet can be a good team working together to help Jazzy. Do know the ball will be in your hands to successfully present what you are advocating for when you see Jazzy needs something. What's your field of study at school, you have a wonderful communication style! Two times a day tramadol is not likely to fully control pain as the body will process this med well before the next dose in 12 hours. So be watchful for signs of pain nearing next dose or when she has to move and is slow or reluctant to do so. Make sure Jazzy does have water in her suite while you are gone. Not drinking water can well be a red flag sign of a bit of nausea and progress quickly to more severe signs of NSAID damage to the stomach lining. Please get 5mgs Pepcid AC (generic ingredient: famotidine) on board asap when you get home. Brand name is more expensive. Look for a generic brand X containing 10mgs famotidine on the grocery store shelves. Cut the 10mgs tab in half for a 5mg dose. FDA has the kind of information you need when NSAIDs are on board: www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/ucm196295.htm Stuart Clark-Price, DVM, MS, DACVIM, DACVA explanation supports the need to be proactive in GI tract protection: Inexpensive DIY bowl holders. Easy to insert another removeable deli container inside of the deli bowl holder attachement.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 10, 2017 11:25:43 GMT -7
Normal vet approves 1/2 tablet twice a day so that is one full tablet...I would ask if I would be okay doing 1/3 tablet every 8 hours but I've already cut them up into fourths I know you aren't a vet but what would you do? I just want Jazzy on the right track and my vet means well of course but he may not be giving those instructions because he just doesn't know about IVDD well. I am a psychology and a criminal justice double major! I have a year and a half to go and may even end up getting my MBA but we shall see about that. I have 3 dachshunds total and they are great to come home to after stressful days! I absolutely share the concern about water not being in the kennel all day. I work at my university's library so I sit here and second guess everything because we aren't busy LOL. I will get her something set up in her kennel right away. I was just afraid she would drink too much and have to pee before we got home, making a mess in the kennel which would be fine but I would immediately assume she has lost control of her functions. I think I am overthinking it. We will get that done right away!
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,538
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Post by PaulaM on Aug 10, 2017 12:00:46 GMT -7
Emily, you have you plate full wth a double major! Kudos to you for taking that on. I see where your drive comes from to also be in the learning mode about IVDD.
Everything can just hurt more, pain is heighten when experienced under conditions of stress or anxiety. Our dogs are stressed with the physical pain of a disc episode. All of their routines have been changed with crate rest..that is a stressful thing. So knowing a disc episode itself is a painful thing, it is prudent to act like it is painful and use an aggressive pain med approach rather than itty bitty upping things.
So if you are seeing pain, then strongly advocate for what is the aggressive and very, very typical dose of tramadol for a 13lbs dog: 50 mgs given every 8 hours.
The time to test if pain still exists is at the stop of Novox. Until then assume there is pain by dosing aggressively At the Novox stop, all pain meds will be stopped as well so you at home have the best chance of properly and quickly assessing for pain. Pain tells the vet he needs to Rx another course of Novox. Some vets like Rxing 5-7 days and others 14 day courses. No one wants a dog on Novox or any other of the anti-inflammatory drugs one bit past the benefit of resolving all pain. All anti-inflammatory drugs carry adverse side effects.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 10, 2017 14:10:17 GMT -7
Frustrated! Currently outside with jazzy and getting ate up by mosquitoes - she will poop (she just did) but won't pee. I know she has to because there was a small amount of pee in her kennel. She hasn't gone since 5:30am and it is currently 5pm. Why won't she go!?!?
Small amount of pee as in quarter sized
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Aug 10, 2017 14:45:36 GMT -7
Since she has passed the sniff and pee test in the past, she is unlikely to have lost bladder control but she may be having difficulty initiating the urine stream. Can you try to express her a bit to see if you can get things going? She may then be able to continue on her own.
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 10, 2017 18:42:34 GMT -7
She peed at 6:00pm outside on her sling before I had to try the expression thing. We were trying to hold out til 9:30pm to let her out for the night since she hasn't been peeing much but I guess since we have made her drink more this evening and put water into her kennel - I think she just had to go. I noticed her getting restless around 8:30pm but I thought she was just starting to feel pain before her nightly dose of meds. I guess not I feel so bad. She really seemed to try and hold it. Poor poor baby. I hope she hasn't lost control of her functions but I truly believe that was our fault for not reading her restlessness as having to go potty. I cleaned her up the best I could - the scentless baby wipes didn't help so I basically gave her a sponge bath. Any advice on how to clean them should they get urine on them? She is traumatized from laying in her filth for the first couple of years of her life - I want to try to keep the rash and burns gone. Her problems started one week ago exactly (8/3/17) and this was the second major potty inside. The first time she went inside, we didn't know about doing the sling yet so she couldn't hold herself up
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Post by Julie & Perry on Aug 10, 2017 19:06:20 GMT -7
You can clean Jazzy with fragrance free baby wipes and cooled green tea.
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Aug 11, 2017 5:07:42 GMT -7
Hi Emily. Double degree. Nice. I did a double graduate degree. JD and an MBA. I practice law in NYC only for 27 years. 😳😳 I was a psych major in college though. Should've been a shrink I feel. Next life.
Anyway, question. When you said potty in last post, did you mean pee or poop? I've had a number of truly ugly and trying nights this past week as he developed diarrhea and was barking shouting from his crate a few nights ago and when I went to him, he has pooped all over the nice fleece sheets I've set up (which sits on top of the wee wee pads, which is on top of the plastic bag wrapped foam mattress), so I was simply growing them out (just the sheets) AND quite a bit all on his legs, his paws, between toes etc. felt so bad. Spent an hour manually cleaning him with pampers wipes, which I highly recommend by the way; they're way better than the fancy dog wipes from the fancy NY pet stores, at 1/3rd the price PLUS, they're much softer as being designed for a babies butt. Anyway, I relate to having to get it all clean including Jazzy. She is super cute. Oliver would love her. Oliver loves all dachshunds in particular, they sense their the same breed.
Anyway hope today gets better. Stick with it. Took me about 10'days to feel truly stabilized with all of the fast adjustments I needed to make, with the meds, with the changes to my lifestyle (I fortunately work for myself so I was off work for most of that time just dealing with Oliver) and just to get him settled and moving in the right direction. Frankly, ur best move was finding DL. I do not know what I would have been doing had I not found this community.
Rob
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Post by Emily & Zeus on Aug 11, 2017 5:55:45 GMT -7
She is pooping pretty well - it is the peeing that we are trying to make happen. It is 8:53am and she hasn't gone since 8:50pm last night. This dog sure can hold it when she wants to. We've taken her out three times this morning and she pooped but won't pee - I hate to keep lifting her and taking her out. she is getting more water now so I wish she would just go! I've tried "expressing" and watching videos of how to do it but that isn't helping, I guess I still can't do it right. This is so frustrating.
She is starting to use her right hind leg now though. And she is wagging as she is walking outside. I hate to keep taking her out there and being too long because we are doing strict crate rest. However, she is progressing and I am so grateful. Now if she would just pee in the morning, during my fiances lunch break, when I get home from work, and before bed - that is all we want! Lol she is so stubborn
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Post by Rob & Oliver on Aug 11, 2017 7:08:10 GMT -7
Hi emily. Let me just say this. Dachshunds, in my experience, can sometimes tend NOT to be fully cooperative and in fact mine can be downright stubborn. Have had major wars trying to get certain pills into him, but that's another story.
Here's my best suggestion for you, now that you have the basics under control and are clearly doing all you can. Ready??? RELAX!!!! Seriously. Jazzy is lucky to have such a smart mommy (and daddy), and it may not be possible for her to pee on command (again remembering the dachshund reference). My suggestion is to just take him gently out of his crate for potty time the 4x a day you can and if he goes, then great, but if he doesn't, just let him be...unless of course it becomes more than a day, then you may need to help him go or express him. But it sounds like he has bladder control so they generally don't like expressing when they can do it themselves. And it so happens that he pees in her crate, getting some on herself etc , then you can sponge her off (I put two bowls on the ground next to Oliver, one with water and an organic dog bath shampoo and the other with plain water, and a dry towel), use the soupy water then the plain water then the towel.). Your lucky he doesn't have the same issue with poop like I had to deal with. That really is gross, creates a mess in thebcrate, on him, etc. So I would chill as your doing awesome, believe me. If you look at the threads more, and I see you have, your quite ahead of the curve (um, student reference for u😬😬) in how much you've done and learned so quickly, so please give yourself a break and if he pees on himself and the crate a few times, it's not so bad. (-: hope that helps.
Just looked at ur first post. JUST TWO DAYS AGO (8/9/17). You were panicked, deeply worried and scared about losing ur baby, about the possibility of surgery. Today is 8/11/17. You are doing AMAZING. And spunky little Jazzy --I'll bet she's so funny. All doxies crack me up. Little mini dogs with the souls of wolves. Anyway, jazzy is totally kicking IVDD's butt.
Long road ahead, stick to protocols, don't let her run rampant as she recovers as we don't want to forget that the healing still needs up to 8 weeks, but for 2'days, I find you way ahead of the education curve here, which is suitable being a highly intelligent student. What school do you attend anyway, if you don't mind my asking. I studied undergrad at U of Maryland, College Park, and got my law and MBA at Hostrs on Long Island.
Anyway, u have a nice day. -R
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