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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jun 25, 2017 21:26:57 GMT -7
Name- Tyson- 9 year old mini dachshund (very very temperamental) You must speak in soft voices, can't stand over him if he is in an irritated state, etc. We tried Prozac when he was young but the med created a zombie like dog, so of course we discontinued. We've learned how to deal with him to make his outbursts less dramatic. I'm not here to discuss his personality but I wanted to start with this because Tyson and crate rest is complete drama most of the time once meds kick in.
His story .. May 16, 2017...(appx one month ago) I noticed he was hesitant to shake one day. Because he's temperamental, he often shakes when he's calming down from a temper tantrum(I'll call it). Anyway, we (Tyson and I) walked over late afternoon/dusk to visit a next door neighbor and as he started to climb her steps, I noticed he was a bit slow. I picked him up and he started to whelp in pain and hunch his back. I got him into her dog's bed and carried him home in that crying almost the whole way. He stopped crying once I got him home and settled down. He slept through the night without further evidence of more pain. I had him at the vet's office first thing the next morning.
They took [6/17] 2 Xrays, urine sample and did blood work for a senior profile. His DVM (general practice) said she did not see anything that stood out on X-rays although she did find that he had a UTI. His bloodwork was all within normal ranges. She sent us home with a diagnosis of a possible pinched nerve and said he needed rest. She DID NOT tell me to crate him. Sigh. Anyway, he was sent home on these meds.
Cephalexin (UTI) Meloxidyl for swelling and inflammation Tramadol for pain
The first day somehow we got the antibiotic and the meloxidyl in him. The second day it was a no go. I was afraid to force it for fear of him lunging at us as he does when he gets mad and causing more damage. Finally we came up with a dollop of squirt whip cream(hiding it in the middle of squirt) or frozen yogurt and a pill crusher for antibiotic to hide it. To this day I CAN NOT get the Tramadol in him. It must be bitter because he even picks it up in whip cream. He refused to take it. I gave up. We purchased a pack and play after I read that he needed crate rest. I knew we were in for an uphill battle considering his temperament alone. I can not say he spent every moment in that pack and play. When he continued barking growling non stop for an hour and would not settle down, constantly standing on his hind legs trying to get out, I took him out for fear of doing more damage. He had one more episode in the first week after vet visit where he cried out in pain before we figured out how to get meds in him. During that episode he walked backwards into his bed, back hunched and favored one of his front legs. Because of the struggle with constant crate rest and not being able to get pain meds in him, I turned to acupuncture. I found someone who would come to my home and peform acupuncture. She is a DVM (graduated from NCSU veterinary school) who does not practice anymore in an office setting 8/12 hours a day. She was part of a DVM general practice for 11 years. She has small children and because she wanted to spend more time with them, she turned to getting certified in acupuncture. She was great with him on her first visit. She tested his mobility, neck back and legs. She wasn't able to treat all the pressure points with needles because he wasn't having it (he allowed a few) but she did massage the pressure points for 30 minutes. She managed to keep him somewhat calm which is an undertaking in itself. The Meloxidyl makes his temperament even more edgy. She prescribed pain meds that he can't pick up. She calls them [chinese herb] tea pills..have somewhat of a licorice coating. Anyway, I am able to get them into him. For the first time in 3 weeks, he actually ate some of his own food the day after her first visit. I couldn't believe the difference in him. She came for a second visit two weeks later and felt he had improved so much that she felt more treatments at this point weren't necessary. She performed a thorough exam not related to his back on her last visit before leaving as we weren't sure when or if we would need her again. When she examined his mouth, she saw infection on his gums on his back teeth. Sigh. I called his regular vet, scheduled an appt for teeth cleaning. He's had many teeth pulled in the past as dachshund are proned to bad teeth. This past Wednesday, June 21st, they performed [dental] surgery, pulled 5 teeth and stitched him up. They sent him home with Meloxidyl for inflammation and Clavamox for infection. The overflow of infection from a molar got into his nasal cavity which caused him to sneeze (BIG SNEEZES) and now because of the head/neck jerk reaction from the sneezes, we are back to square one with his back and cries of temporary pain. I've added benadryl to his meds hoping it would calm him and help with sneezing. Also, I asked the former vet who performs acupuncture only now to look at his Xrays I had on a disk. She called me and said she saw one degenerative disk. Because he's not showing any signs of paralysis she felt that the neurologists at NCSU would recommend conservative treatment so here I am at Dodger's List. If you are still reading I desperately need some pointers.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify [13.3 lbs disc relapse due to surgery 10 days into crate rest! Meloxidyl as of 6/23: ? mgs ?x/day for 7 days, stops on 6/30 Tramadol ? mgs ?x/day Chinese herb tea pills ? mgs ?x/day Clavamox ? mgs ?x/day Pepcid AC ? mgs ?x/day ]
What meds will help to keep him calm when the meloxidyl revs him up more so that I can accomplish complete crate rest without him jumping up trying to get out and causing more damage? And yes, I put a cover over pack and play to try to create a no escape atmosphere in his mind.
Because meds can upset his stomach, I'm also crushing up pepcid to add to his diet. I'm so afraid he's going to have issues sooner or later because of inflammatory meds or throw up. With his neck, throwing up could easily cause matters to be worse. Is the pepcid sufficient unless has signs of upset stomach?
Again, he's a mini dachshund. He weighs 13.3 lbs. I've been told he's overweight. What's an ideal weight and how many calories a day can he have to maintain that ideal weight? I've read 220 calories but that can't be right. Because of his dental surgery and swollen gums, I have to feed him chicken, hamburger etc crumpled up. Add to that a squirt of whip cream at least twice a day sometimes frozen yogurt because without it, there would be getting no meds in him.
I've read muscle relaxers mentioned but is that too much on top of the meloxidyl?
One more question off the top of my head as I'm pretty sure his degenerative disk is in his thoracic region of vertebrae. I've completely done away with his collar. At this point, is a harness safe to use or would it cause more pain squeezing his back as in guiding him when outside to potty?
Any advice would be so helpful.
Thank you for your time, Cheryl
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Jun 26, 2017 5:20:16 GMT -7
Welcome to Dodgerslist. First thing to know is that it IS in the cards for your dog to get back to enjoying life whether immediately walking during the short 8 weeks of conservative treatment it will take a disc to heal or waiting on more nerve repair - IVDD is not a death sentence. Find out why that is true: www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htm
In order to help you more, could you please answer these questions?
☐ Let us know you are now on the same page about crate rest.
Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog's back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot.
An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on! ☐ Can your dog specifically sniff and squat and then release urine or do you find wet bedding or leaks on you when lifted up? ☐ Eating and drinking OK? Poops OK - normal firmness & color -no dark or bright red blood? To help keep Tyson calm, you can try a calming aid. Using any oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working -- it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives. Of course always keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Place a DAP pheromone diffusor at floor level where the recovery suite is: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/ Use a diffusor with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php 3) Bach's Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation bachflowerpets.com/rescue-remedy-pets/
Please update with complete information on the medication list below as it will be easier to help you.
13.3 lbs disc relapse 6/23 due to surgery 10 days into crate rest! Meloxidyl as of 6/23: ? mgs ?x/day for ? days Tramadol ? mgs ?x/day Chinese herb tea pills ? mgs ?x/day Clavamox ? mgs ?x/day Pepcid AC ? mgs ?x/day
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 26, 2017 7:26:29 GMT -7
Cheryl, in addition to the good information Jean has mention to you, let me chime in too. If it takes drugging Tyson with prescription sedatatives then so be it. His disc needs to heal and his spinal cord needs protection from his excessive movement. While calmers often do work, in Tyson's case, he needs help, strong help now, today. Call your vet, discuss strongly and advocate for trazadone or another sedative. All sedatives may not work the same on every dog to calm. That is why you would want to be at home to observe if they do calm him or excite him. If the dose needs to be lowered. It is all testing to see what works for Tyson. If he is still on Chinese tea pills, could you give us the exact name of the product? With a disc episode there are usually three sources of pain and that is the reason to have on board 3 different pain meds to deal with each source. The pain meds are also rather short lived and if they have not been prescribed for every 8 hours, not likely to give round the clock pain relief. It sounds like Tyson is being under medicated when you report after medication then he is more active moving more than he should! Can you make a phone call now, this am and advocate for getting his pain meds adjusted for Tyson's needs. ~~ Tramadol 50 mgs every 8 hours as the general analgesic ~~ Gabapentin for nerve pain also every 8 hours ~~ methocarbamol for muscle contraction pain also every 8 hours. Tyson's body has many repair jobs to do. Now would not be the time to think about a diet. Tramadol is extremely bitter. You might try to see if you can gain Tyson's trust again, try to retrain him to take pills. Give some pill looking treats several times a day so he sees the non-pill treats are a good thing. THEN as he trusts you, try the three pill method of given meds Put the pill into the well of a small mashed banana ball, a cream cheese ball, liverwurst ball or inside of a sticky small marshmallow and sealed completely so no taste is on the exterior. If you have split any pills, make sure you wash your hands so no pill dust transfers to the outside of the treat. Use the three treat method. Prepare 2 treats with no meds inside PLUS the med ball. Give plain treat while holding med ball in front of eyes. The idea is your dog will be greedy after the first treat to get the 2nd. Immediately hold the 3rd plain treat so he will hurry to swallow the med ball to get to treat #3.It is most unfortunate that 10 days into the early healing disc a surgery was performed rather than the possibility to control the infection via antiboitics til it was safer for the disc. A dental requires repositioning the body while the muscles that support the back are asleep meaning great danger that the bad disc will worsen. I would say the very best thing you can do for your dog is self education. Tyson was born with disc disease so it is important to know how to live with it. Some will have only one episode while others can have several episodes during their life time. How to handle dentals with an IVDD dog for example is something likely to come up again. Dodgerslist has taken quite some time to interview neuros, PT rehab professionals, dog trainers, collaborated with university researchers on articles, sought out veterinary professionals to write pertinent information for our IVDD community. There really is an unprecedented accumulation of the "best of best" information on IVDD. It is there all free just for the time you want to invest in your dog's disease and protect him. You are the only advocate your dog has and the better informed you are, the better decisions you will make. IVDD is one disease where knowledge is power to fight the IVDD enemy and win. All these wonderful topics are searchable or just browse here: www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htmWe will be watching for your update on the very important med list so we have a better picture of what is going on with Tyson.
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jun 27, 2017 14:20:11 GMT -7
Sorry for the delayed response but I just didn't have answers to questions yet. Still don't but I have an update.
I created a profile and info in the wee hours of Monday morning. I was trying to wait out Tyson's relentless whines and barks hoping he would fall asleep in crate. My post was very lengthy so I appreciate the feedback I received. It went on for 3 hours, I gave in and put him in bed. I was afraid with the trying to climb out non stop he was going to do more damage. I have provided steps for him to every surface above floor since he was very young esp after I learned a dachshund was prone to back injuries. I have now removed them. There is no way down unless mama puts you down. He will bark at me to wake me up if he wakes before me to let me know he needs to go out. As soon as I'm up, I put him in his crate. He's at least giving in during the day hours. He whines and barks but I have more control of his state of mind.
After reading your input as far as meds, it dawned on me how little this baby has had to alleviate pain outside of the acupuncture. Basically tea pills from my acupuncturist and Meloxidyl prescribed has been it. They did prescribe Tramadol but I just had not been able to get it in him [tramadol]. I'll keep trying with the methods prescribed.
His current meds are Meloxidyl once a day (15 lb dose) Clavamox 1.6 mL every 12 hours Tea pills 180 mg 2Xday
As far as the dental surgery basically 2 weeks into recovery from first episode of pain, I have to take some responsibility as it was a different vet. We had purchased a home in another city so we found a new vet closer by. But our old vet had cleaned his teeth annually since he was young and is very familiar with him so I drove the distance to let them take care of his mouth. Of course I told them to be careful of his back but who knows how that message was relayed to whoever handled him during and after surgery. I should have put my foot down and said let's just get infection in gum cleared up first. What was I thinking?
On Monday morning I called his vet and said I have to have additional meds for him. Unfortunately, I received a return call at end of day. I get it, this may be when she has time to make additional calls in a day at the office. She agreed to prescribe muscle relaxer and gabapentin. They had to call a pharmacy on the other side of US(Arizona) to have the compound made for his size. It's being shipped out today. From what I could tell, she prescribed 3 weeks of one and 6 weeks of another. I will have to read label before I can give out specific details. She would not prescribe anything else. She felt his efforts to get out of crate would do more damage than outside resting. I know I know. I'm hoping with the new meds, I'll have more success keeping him calmer and more content. I live in the country now on over an acre so a leash is not necessary. So now if I may ask for a recommendation for the best type of harness to purchase so that I can control his state of mind when we go outside to potty. He hasn't pooped in two days. He's urinating fine and he's not wobbly when he walks but I pick him up if he doesn't act like he's sniffing to find a place to poop. He did whine today when he came back in from outside. I think he's nervous now expecting the worse when he moves or even feels a hint of discomfort.
So hopefully as of tomorrow I will have the gabapentin and metocarbomal in addition to his meloxidyl. I think the meloxidyl is set to run out by Thursday. She didn't mention a refill for it but I didn't ask either.
Again I'll update again when I receive the meds as in dosage. I'm still working on reintroducing the tramadol in a treat fashion.
After I see how he does with new meds, I'll address something else to keep him calm if they do not work. I have also ordered the diffuser for Adaptil. I had ordered the spray kind because the acupuncturist recommended it for his bedding and before treatments but it made him sick when I sprayed on his bed.
This is so hard. My nerves are shot. Pain that I can't make better by myself is so very hard.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jun 27, 2017 15:07:05 GMT -7
It is hard. Very hard to see our beloved dogs suffering. I am glad that your were able to get the gabapentin and methocarbamol prescribed. Sometimes human pharmacies can do the gabapentin compounding. What methods have you tried to get him to take the tramadol? Did you try the three pill method with liverwurst? Dogs usually love liverwurst. As Paula suggested, try giving him the liverwurst with nothing in it a few times. It is critical that Tyson be confined to a crate. Struggling to get out of the crate can cause harm, but if he continues to struggle and the natural methods like pheromones do not work, a prescription sedative can be prescribed. It is better to do this than have any kind of worsening occur because of excessive movement. Our dogs can move so fast that damage can occur in a heartbeat. Can you put his crate on a tale near the bed? Sometimes the meds can be constipating. You could try pumpkin to make it easier for him to poop. If he does not like pumpkin some alternatives are: really ripe mashed fresh pear, just take off the peel off; microwaved and mashed peeled sweet potato. The amount of water in the diet makes all the difference. --To loosen the stool, add equal parts water to each kibble meal along with a teaspoon of plain canned pureed pumpkin 1x a day. How much Pepcid AC is Tyson taking? In terms of a harness, you want the neck part of the harness to sit on the boney structure of the shoulders not the weaker soft tissue of the throat. Any pulling should be against the strong upper chest/shoulder area. Here is a picture showing how a harness should sit on the shoulders and chest. www.dodgerslist.com/literature/harnessPULL.jpgThere are many brands that have the right features. Be aware it may take trying several to find the model that best fits your dog. In my household, it took a different brand for each of my dachshunds to get the right fit. Here a few harnesses to start your search with: www.pawmark.com/products.php?cat=367 www.puppiaus.com/PuppiaUs/ProductList.asp www.noodleandfriends.com/Dachshund-Harnesses/c11/index.htmlwww.noodleandfriends.com/Dachshund-Harnesses/c11/index.htmlTaking care of an IVDD dogs is harder in the beginning. Once you get the right medications for Tyson, things will become much easier.
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Post by Julie & Perry on Jun 27, 2017 18:47:43 GMT -7
My dog was very very resistant to being crated also. I had to give her a sedative, Acepromazine. Maybe that would help Tyson. Ask your vet. Better a little sedated than getting worse from IVDD. It is hard, IVDD meds can be difficult to get balanced but it will get better. Healing wishes for Tyson.
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jun 27, 2017 22:22:48 GMT -7
I pushed the vet for a sedative on top of gabapentin and methocarbamol but I didn't have success. She told me about her dogs who got well without crate rest using pain meds more or less. Because he has not taken any of the meds she was prescribing [which ones?], I felt I didn't have a convincing argument as to how he would respond. If these meds don't settle him down where I can crate him without his usual drama, I'll call back and beg or switch vets.
I have called and scheduled another appt for him to receive acupuncture again next week in my home. I didn't want to add the acupuncture on top of having possible sore gums. He doesn't like the acupuncture but we manage to at least get through part acupuncture part massaging pressure points.
I am giving him 15 mg of Pepcid AC. I can only find it in 20 mg pills so I'm cutting basically a 1/4 off before I give it to him because he weighs 13.3 lbs.
[Moderator's note: please do not modify 13.3 lbs disc relapse due to surgery 10 days into crate rest! Meloxidyl as of 6/23: 15lbs dose 1x/day for 11 days Tramadol ? mgs ?x/day dog won't take the pill Gabapentin as of 6/28 ? mgs ?x/day methocarbamol as of 6/28 ? mgs ?x/day exact name of Chinese herb tea pills 180mgs 2x/day Clavamox1.6 mL every 2x/day Pepcid AC 5mgs ?x/day ]
Tyson is usually very ornery. It's his way or no way. He never gives in but I can tell he's leaning towards feeling depressed and just doesn't feel good. I'm sure poor fellow's belly is probably tight. I did manage to get about 2 tablespoons maybe a little more of sweet potato in him tonight. I'm so hoping it moves his bowels. I'm not sure how much energy he has to strain or if it will be painful when he does go as in using muscles in his back.
Honestly, at this point, I'm scared of the unknown.
Thanks for listening. Cheryl and Tyson
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Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,724
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Post by Marjorie on Jun 28, 2017 5:04:43 GMT -7
Hi, Cheryl. You may want to hold off on the acupuncture. If Tyson doesn't like it, he may move too much to avoid it. As far as massaging pressure points, please be sure the acupuncturist doesn't massage any points along the spine. It's unknown exactly where the damaged disc is and you don't want any type of pressure or massage near that damaged disc. There is most likely still swelling pressing on the nerves of the spine. It's that pressure that causes the pain and can cause nerve damage. Some acupuncturists also perform chiropractic adjustments. Here's why chiropractic measures should always be avoided with a dog with IVDD: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/chiropractic.htmAcupuncture can give damaged nerves a jump start in healing. However, Tyson doesn't have any nerve damage at this point. Acupuncture can help with pain; however, it's always best to get the pain under control with medication so the pain coverage is consistent. With acupuncture, the assistance with pain starts to wear off after a certain time following the treatment. Pain meds do a better job of keeping the pain under control from one dose to the next. I do hope that the additional meds will bring Tyson's pain completely under control. The pain should be brought under control within one hour of giving the new course of meds and should remain completely under control from one dose to the next. And I hope the pain meds help calm him. The strict crate rest with limitation of movement of the spine is the most important part of conservative care. We'll be awaiting an update as to how he does on the new meds and all the details of the new meds - exact dosage in mgs and frequency given. Hugs for you and continued healing prayers for Tyson.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 28, 2017 10:10:55 GMT -7
Cheryl, agree with Marjorie in the above post about danger if there is massage being done on Tyson's back! No Chiro no massage during conservative treatment.
1. What is the exact name of the Tea pills at 180 mgs 2x/day. Chinese pills are made of many ingredients (herbs). It is very important to know what exactly your dog is taking! Very experienced holistic vets will be hesitant to prescribe Chinese herbs when conventional medication are already in use. The reason is there is no asurity there would not be any interactions with the other medications that could make your dog sick or worse.
2. Are you giving 5mg Pepcid AC 2xday to provide full 24 hours stomach protection?
3. If Meloxidy runs out on 6/29, then clearly is it not time for it to stop with there still being pain AND ordering of additional pain meds to be on board.
4. If your vet does not understand the need for an anti-inflammatory to get swelling down., then you do need to hire a vet who is more knowledgeable on using anti-inflammatory drugs with a disc episode. With the 4th approaching and places may be closed, time to take fast action to hire the right vet to be on Tyson's health care team.
5. It it takes being slightly drugged by a sedative to keep his back from too much movement then so be it. The bed, the couch all slope inward are not always horizontal. May cause Tyson to quickly adjust as mattress moves. All these things are BAD for an early healing disc which has a requirement for llimited movement. Inside his recovery suite is the safest place for the healing disc. Again this may be another reason to hire a new more knowledgeable IVDD vet. A vet who has a fuller understanding of IVDD and will work with you to help you carry out true conservative treatment, full pain control and a sedative if that's what it takes.
6. What is the Tramadol prescription. ?mgs for each dose? How many times a day are you supposed to give?
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jun 28, 2017 17:04:46 GMT -7
First I want to thank you all for your input. It's been a long 4 days. But I do have a little good news today.
For the second time in Tyson's life, he didn't sleep in my bed last night. I slept on couch by his pack and play and gently rubbed his lil head. He finally crawled underneath his blanket at about 5 am and stopped whining. He's always wanted something over his head. We managed to sleep for about 1 1/2 hours...keep in mind that is before any pain meds outside Meloxidyl had been successfully administered. It's a start.
I coaxed him finger full by finger full last night to lick the puree sweet potato off my fingers. Nothing is easy with him. But this morning, he pooped! A big ol long poop. I was so happy. It worked and I didn't hear cries of pain. It's the lil things sometimes.
I received his pain meds today from Arizona. So now his meds are as follows.
▲Gabapentin 2 x day 0.6 ml + Methacarbamol 3 x day 0.6 ml Meloxidyl 14 lb dose 1 x day Pepcid AC 15 mg 2 x day I'm crushing it up, I can not get the solid pill in him yet. I read the instructions and it said do not chew but I have no choice if I'm going to get it in him at all... not yet anyway. Is it still effective crushed up in whip cream?
[Moderator's note: please do not modify 13.3 lbs disc relapse due to surgery 10 days into crate rest! Meloxidyl as of 6/23: 14lbs dose 1x/day for 11 days stops on 7/4 Tramadol 12.5 mgs 2x/day dog wont take the pill Gabapentin 100mg/mL as of 6/28: ▲60 mgs (0.6mL) 3x/day + methocarbamol 250mgs/mL s of 6/28: 151mgs (0.6mL) 3x/day Chinese Body Sore herbal tea pills 180mgs 2x/day Clavamox 1.6 mL every 2x/day Pepcid AC 5mgs 2x/day ]
I'm still working with the liverwurst and Tramadol. Do you heat it up? Bananas are out, got some cream cheese. (haven't tried yet) It's baby steps with him. If you walk by his crate he'll growl at you if you even look at him and he's in a mood. But that's just him. Yea, I adore him anyway. He's the best car rider in the world. Take him outside the house and he's gold. But inside, it's his domain. So far, he's turning his nose up at Tramadol but that may be because he's in a mood at that point and time. You have to put his food on a bowl and let him sniff it, he WILL NOT eat it out of your hand unless it's boiled chicken. And that's only after you have left a piece or two in his bowl. Because of his dental work and his moodiness, I'm rotating baked fish, chicken and steakums without seasoning. (oh and add to that appx 1 tablespoon of sweet potato)
And here's the best news of all, I successfully got his first dose of gabapentin in him hidden in whip cream today. I ordered both meds gabapentin and methacarbonal in cherry flavored liquid. I wanted to pick him up and squeeze him tight I was so proud of him. You have no idea. I'm going to try and add the methacarbamol in an hour or two because it's a different dosage or more often I should say.
It may be two steps backward tomorrow but today it was one or two forward...in my mind anyway.
Thank you again to all of you for your concern and guidance.
I do have more info about the acupuncturist and our last discussion but my posts are too long as it is so I'll save that for tomorrow.
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 28, 2017 17:36:45 GMT -7
Hi Cheryl! You are giving him too much Pepcid AC. He should be getting 5mg every 12 hours.. Give it 30 minutes prior to the Meloxidyl ..and again 12 hours later. If you using the 20mg tablets give 1/4 each dose.. What is the dosage of the Tramadol and how many times a day are you supposed to give it? No never heat the liverwurst or the Tramadol and make sure you don't have Tramadol dust on your fingers.. I always use lunch meat/deli meat because it slides right down.. Tyler loves it and I started off using the 3 treat trick and it has never failed me..He was suspicious of the Tramadol at first because he got taste of it and it is very bitter but I started off giving him lunch meat treats to get him back to taking goodies from my fingers.. and later that day I was able to give him his Tramadol wrapped in lunch/deli meat,I put it in the second treat and always hide so he doesn't see me prepare his meds.. I give the first empty treat, with the med treat in view which he gulps down and then the 3rd treat to help it slide down.. Make sure nothing you give him has onions in it as they are toxic to dogs. He needs to be on a balanced dog food to help him heal. My Tyler is finicky also when he has a disc episode or when he doesn't feel well for any other reason.. Once his pain is under control his appetite comes back.. Here is more info: dodgerslist.com/literature/nutritionhealing.htmI would avoid whip cream..Too much sugar...Too many dogs are becoming diabetic these days. Tyson may like cream cheese?
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 28, 2017 17:39:36 GMT -7
Cheryl, hope to hear with pain meds getting down his throat, pain will be in control.
Liverwurst does not need to be heated, dog love it cold.
1. How many mgs of tramadol is each dose? How many times a day are you supposed to give it?
2. How many mgs of gabapentin are in one mL? That information should be on the bottle.
3. How many mgs of methocarbamol are in on mL? check the bottle for that info
4. Pepcid AC should be 5mgs 2x/day. Verify you are not giving 15mgs 2x/day.
5. What is the exact name of the Chinese tea pill that is 180 mgs 2x/day? This sound like a VERY high and dangerous dose for a 13 pound dog!
6. Meloxicam is scheduled to stop on Fri Je 30? With pain meds just getting on board, and there is still signs of pain, it is likley that Fri will not be the time to stop Meloxicam to test for pain. What discussion have you had with the vet on another Meloxicam course?
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jun 28, 2017 17:55:28 GMT -7
Gabapentin- Bottle says 100mg/ml in Almond Oil Methocarbamol - Bottle says 250 mg/ml Suspension Metacam- It's so tiny but I believe it says 15 mg/ml...it's either that or it's 1.5 mg ml Oral Suspension Trmadol bottle says 50 mg but they cut them into 1/4 and directions say to give it to him 2X day so I'm guessing that's 12.5 mg 2 X day. Pepcid AC they are 20 mg each so I was cutting appx 1/4 off and giving him the bigger part. I honestly thought it was 1 mg per lb but I'll switch to just 1/4 of Pepcid AC pill
I've stopped the tea pills yesterday. I really couldn't tell a difference in his pain level but they were all I had.
The vet didn't mention another round of Meloxidyl, I'll call her tomorrow.
I don't know where I got the notion I was suppose to give him 1 mg per lb of the pepcid AC??? Thank goodness I seek out people who are alot more knowledgeable than me.Sigh. The bottle of tramadol says 50 mg 2 X day but they cut the pills into 1/4 so I guess that's 12.5 mg 2x day.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Jun 28, 2017 18:38:37 GMT -7
Even though you stopped the tea pills, can you look on the package and tell us:
5. What is the exact name of the Chinese tea pill that is 180 mgs 2x/day?
How many times a day is the Rx for methocarbamol?
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jun 28, 2017 19:22:44 GMT -7
Ha! He was in the mood and I have successfully gotten the first Tramadol in him with folded cheese. I know it may not work the next time but in the meantime, I'll try giving him very small treats and work up to doing it on a regular basis. The methocarbamol is 3 X per day. (Every eight hours)
I looked on the bottle the licorice like coated tea pills came in. It did say *Sample size* but it's in a typical pill bottle. Drug use - Body Sore, 180 mg teapills #20. 2 X per day. I did not buy them from acupuncturist, she brought them as a sample to see if they helped with the pain initially after administering his first treatment. I will ask her specifics. She is a general DVM who practiced for 11 years in Raleigh, NC. She is not part of a practice currently. She solely concentrates on animals who might benefit from acupuncture. She makes house calls as well as working in vet offices who request her services of acupuncture.
I'm going to hopefully get a little more sleep tonight. I know he needs it as much as I do! I hope that Tramadol and the other new meds create the feeling of floating among the clouds tonight.
Again, thank you so much.
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 28, 2017 22:08:36 GMT -7
So glad you were successful in getting Tramadol into Tyson! It just takes finding the right tempting goodie!
Prayers for a good night sleep for you and Tyson!
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jun 29, 2017 13:11:08 GMT -7
Tyson is struggling with side effects from the methocarbamol, I think. He's having one backward sneeze after another and keeps rubbing his nose about 30 minutes after I give medication. I haven't noticed any trouble with gabapentin. It's only lasting for a few minutes but constant rubbing his nose back and forth on his bed and I'm afraid he is going to have a pain reaction sooner or later.
Is this typical? I read one of the side effects was emesis. I was wondering if that was possibly what was going on.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jun 29, 2017 13:18:19 GMT -7
If you think it is an allergic reaction, best to check with the vet. I don't think that is a typical reaction.
How was Tyson's sleeping? Are you still able to give him the tramadol?
I think by emesis, they mean vomiting.
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jun 29, 2017 18:12:41 GMT -7
His vet is off on Thursday but I'm suppose to receive a call back first thing tomorrow morning. Yes, it said emesis was a form of vomiting but not coming from his stomach...more or less his esophagus. I'm not going to give him any more methocarbamol until I speak with vet. So far, I'm having success with hiding tramadol in steak ums. They are very thin so I can roll it in one of those. He turns his nose up at any and all cold cuts I've offered. He's just a handful, always has been. We can't look at him in crate...he'll lunge if you do. I also again requested a sedative when I called vet today. If she doesn't give in, I'm going to seek referrals hoping to find another vet who is truly familiar with IVDD.
He slept straight for about 5 hours last night with me pretty much coaxing him until he gave in. If I'm up, he's not as bad about carrying on in crate as in making noise pawing etc to get noticed.
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Post by Jean & Mimi on Jun 30, 2017 5:13:53 GMT -7
Hi Cheryl, Please do let us know what the vet says - we are curious. Glad you are able to get him to take the Tramadol - my dog always found a way to spit it out. While it is fattening, you can try a bit of peanut butter too if Tyson will eat it. Have you tried any of the oral calmers/diffusers for Tyson? Place a DAP pheromone diffusor at floor level where the recovery suite is: --Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser 48ml www.petcomfortzone.com/dogs.html --Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser 48ml www.adaptil.com/Use a diffusor with one oral calmer from below: Oral calmers: 1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health 2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine. www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php 3) Bach's Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation bachflowerpets.com/rescue-remedy-pets/
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jun 30, 2017 17:06:14 GMT -7
I called Tyson's vet yesterday /Thursday, June 29 mid day. She was not in and I was told she would call back first thing this morning because of my concerns and Disc episode. As of 12 pm (noon) today, still no call. As of 2 pm, Tyson has a new vet. I have an appt Monday morning at 9:40.
I did not realize Tyson's acupuncture specialist also still actively worked as a general DVM two days a week in addition to traveling to several area veterinary offices performing acupuncture the rest of the week. Again, she has small children so she doesn't want that 7 to 6 pm requirement 5 days a week. That told me a lot about her. She didn't try to sell herself or belittle Tyson's vet at any point. Long story short, I stumbled across the info on my own. I texted her today and she agreed he needed to be on a sedative. She said she had no problem with it because it was a short term need. But of course, she needs to examine him and go over his entire medical history first at her office. This is totally separate from dealing with her for acupuncture. There are 4 DVM in her office. Long story short, I'm dealing with a vet's office now who is very familiar with IVDD. I'm a little more at ease, at least now about the road ahead of him.
After I couldn't get in touch with vet yesterday, I decided to give Tyson a smaller dose of methacarbomal to see how he reacted. After a few minutes of backward sneezes, he was fine the night before but I stopped initially because it worried me. Anyway, I've built back up to a full dose at 0.6 mL and he seems to be doing fine. No more backward sneezes.
The crate rest is still a struggle but we're hanging in there. I'm a little concerned with sedative and how I'm going to get him to eat but I'll deal with that when it happens. He doesn't like me taking his food to him in crate, he knows something is up somehow. But I use my terrier to entice him to eat or take his treats. Anything is better than his brother getting treats meant for him. It's a cat and mouse game but so far it's working.
I will say, the towel/blanket idea over the crate was SO HELPFUL. I draped it down the side of crate leaving a smaller window of visiblity. Tyson is very high strung and very territorial. He's not going to miss what is going on anywhere around him. If he wants to continue to see what is happening outside his crate he must sit/ lie down in lieu of standing, trying to get out...otherwise he can't see and that just won't do.
Now that I have all pain meds going successfully, I haven't encountered a pain episode. I'm so thankful to all who have guided me to help Tyson.
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Post by Pauliana on Jun 30, 2017 21:22:48 GMT -7
Hi Cheryl, The Methocarbamol and Gabapentin was made in cherry flavored liquid? Was it made in a human pharmacy and did they know it was for a dog? I am worried that the liquids may have Xylitol for a sweetner? Xylitol is Poison to a dog and may be why he is having issues with it. If it was made in a veterinary pharmacy it should be ok but I would still call who ever provided them ASAP and make sure the Gabapentin and Methocarbamol does not contain Xylitol, there are still some people who aren't aware it is dangerous to pets. STOP GIVING until you know for sure it is Xylitol free..
If Tyson shows any more symptoms such as vomiting, lethargy, seizures etc take to ER Replace the meds with another safer formulation. They can do non sweetened flavors too. Xylitol is found often in gums and some peanut butters and other products made for people, it is safe for people..but has been the reason for lots of calls to the ASPCA Poison control hotline for pets. www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-controlIf Xylitol isn't the reason for his reaction to it to the meds, there may be another ingredient in the cherry flavor that he is allergic to.
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jul 1, 2017 7:00:46 GMT -7
His meds were prepared by Roadrunner Pharmacy in Phoenix Arizona. I had them send them over night to me. I was given the impression they only deal with pet meds. It says they are a leading veterinary compounding pharmacy online. I'll call again on Monday but surely they would know flavored liquids should not contain harmful sweetners.
He hasn't had any more backward sneezes. I'll talk with vet on Monday about the methocarbomal. He does tend to rub his nose every now and then on mattress. Other than that I haven't seen any unusual behavior. It could still be side effects from his dental surgery where infection got into his sinus cavity from a bad tooth. He was on Clavamox for 7 days and his mouth appears to be fine now as he is occasionally taking a bite here and there of his food with no signs of pain.
His gabapentin is also cherry flavored and I haven't seen any unusual behavior with that. Tyson will not have any of it without a flavor added and even then I have to make it a game with his brother close by. It's a struggle.
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,528
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Post by PaulaM on Jul 1, 2017 7:24:06 GMT -7
Cheryl, if the sneezes happen again, you can shorten the duration by massaging the throat to stop the spasm. You can also try covering your the nostrils very briefly. This will cause swallowing, which usually helps clear the irritation and stop the sneezing.
A veterinary compounding pharmacy will recognize the danger in using Xylitol as a sweetner. It is compounding at human pharmacies that owners need to speak with the pharmaciist to remind them not to use xylitol and then double check again when receiving the bottle as that ingredient will not likely be on the label.
Great news on Tyson getting all his pain med and no signs of pain now.
Meloxidyl was to be stopped on 6/30. Are you still giving till you meet with new vet on Monday or did you stop it?
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jul 1, 2017 8:45:26 GMT -7
I was mistaken about the Meloxidyl. He has enough to last till Monday [Rx stops on 7/4]. The vet sent him home on it after dental surgery but I didn't open it right away. I still had left over from first episode of disc pain. He got so much better with that and acupuncture (it revs him up terribly) that I discontinued thinking he didn't need it. Of course, that was before I found dodgerslist. Lack of knowledge with a former vet that doesn't give thorough info and instructions just leads to no recovery at all.
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jul 1, 2017 11:55:58 GMT -7
I'm struggling today with Tyson and getting Tramadol in him. I have been hiding the Pepcid AC and trammadol together in steak ums. Today, he's mad at the world. I was able to get the gabapentin in him and I don't usually have trouble with the meloxidyl.
My question...If I crush up the 1/4 pill of Pepcid AC, will it have the same effect? I read on the bottle meant for humans advising not to chew up. I can get Pepcid AC in him crushed up with pill crusher with whip cream(it's always just a squirt/maybe a tablespoon. This will be his first dose today and in about an hour, it's time for his meloxidyl. We missed his morning dose of Tramadol as he was mad and wanted to be snappy so I gave up.
I did a little research on Tyson wanting to rub his nose and having backward sneezes ( occasionally). I guess it's possible his gums are still healing as one of the teeth roots (I'm almost sure) was connected to his sinuses. In other words, I'm wondering between infection leaking into sinus cavity and natural antihistamines his body produces if it's part of the problem. Again, I'll ask vet on Monday.
He appears fine as far as his teeth go. We have finished the Clavamox.
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 1, 2017 13:10:29 GMT -7
1800petmeds also says that the famotidine should not be crushed, so best not to crush it.
Have you tried peanut butter with Tyson? That worked for me when even liverwurst failed me trying to pill Frankie. I only had to put a little bit on the pill and he gulped it down. I used the three treat approach so as to keep him less suspicious when he saw peanut butter. First a little on a spoon, no pill, then the peanut butter hiding the pill, sometimes he looked puzzled at this. Finally a last bit of peanut butter with nothing.
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Post by Cheryl & Tyson on Jul 21, 2017 11:38:33 GMT -7
I wanted to stop in and give an update. We are now on day 21 of crate rest-2nd go round (relapsed first attempt because of dental surgery with 1st attempt) with no cry or whelp of pain. We have been off all prescribed pain meds for a week. He had a bout of nausea and diarrhea (one episode) with metacam so we stopped it immediately. Again this was our second attempt at crate rest so he had been on it about 20 days when you add the two together. His stools had no blood before or after we stopped meds. I tried everything from cold cuts, cream cheese, steak ums... you name it to hide tramadol. I probably snuck it by him 6% of the time [tramadol]. My only saving grace was a dollup of whip cream (teaspoon/tablespoon) mixed in with liquid meds. In a nutshell, Tyson and meds are a nightmare. I have hand fed him since this all began. I have to lay it down on a plate and let him sniff it before he'll take any food whatsoever. He WILL NOT eat in his crate out of bowl. Even the water, he constantly tried to turn over. Bowl was tied to pack and play but he never gave up. The vet prescribed trazadone because he is so temperamental and because he kept trying to get out of crate crying or growling or lunging when you walked by pretty much day and night. Tyson has always been difficult to handle when in his zone. He's a dream outside of the house. We're going to work on emotional balance when this is all over with. Trazadone like Tramadol is very bitter so that didn't work after his first taste. Metacam made him feel so much better but at the same time revved him up. Now that his system is free of metacam, Bach's Rescue Remedy drops are working much better in helping to keep him calmer.
He's in a pack n play. I purchased an egg crate foam mattress and cut it to the exact size of the pack and play so there isn't a break in extra room from bed to rolled up blankets/etc. I roll that pack n play everywhere we go. He gets upset if he can't see you. He gets most excited when we come in from being away. So when one of us arrives, the one already home goes out the door onto screen porch where Tyson can see them and the other comes in front door(he's not expecting and doesn't have time to react with jumping up etc in crate) goes straight to his crate and talks to him softly. It works because his animated reaction is cut by 3/4. We live on an acre with an underground fence so a harness/leash has never been necessary until now. Some days he growls and knarls and refuses it initially but he's finally learned there is no potty escape without it. We just have to work it out between us for 15 min to remind him. LOL I still hate potty time. After dealing with this since May, I still dread picking him up and hold my breath until I can pick him back up to come back inside. We did try acupuncture again but now he knows her face and it's too much so we will assess him again when hopefully he's at the finish line of conservative treatment.
All this to say, to those who are just beginning the journey, it takes time and patience but it does get better! I don't look back now but forward as I mark off the days of the calendar until we hit the 8 week mark and I can watch him climb (ramp) on his own without holding my breath! We are getting there.
This site and the knowledge/advice found here was a God send. Thank you to all who helped guide this very scary journey!!!!!
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Jul 21, 2017 13:39:17 GMT -7
It is great that Tyson is off all meds without pain. This means the swelling in the spinal cord is gone and only the rest of the crate rest period, starting from the relapse, is necessary.
A pack and play works well for a lot of people so it is good that Tyson likes it. I think many dogs find that less confining.
Is he calm enough without the trazadone? No need for it if he is. You could also try some of the natural remedies that Jean recommended like the Pheromone diffuser with the oral calmers.
You are doing a great job with that feisty little guy . Hopefully the time will go by fast and it won't be very long before the crate rest period is over and Tyson can go from there.
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