Lejla's Gunner 8/2016 Conservative—Dox/chi mix

Hi and welcome to Dodgerslist. Everyone here has a dog with IVDD so you have come to the right place. The first thing to know is that it IS in the cards for your dog to get back to enjoying life whether immediately walking during the short 8 weeks of conservative treatment it will take a disc to heal or waiting on more nerve repair - IVDD is not a death sentence. Find out why that is true:
 www.dodgerslist.com/index/SDUNCANquality.htm

The important thing is that you are crating Gunner now. The size of the recovery suite should only be big enough to stand up, turn around and when lying down to fully stretch out legs so he should not have to scoot around to get to his food. Scooting is to be avoided during the crate rest period. Anytime out of the crate is a dangerous time for a healing disc. Only potty time and vet appointments are a necessity to be out of the crate. Be diligent about crate rest, cheating on crate rest promotes damage to the disc. We have some information about setting up the recovery suite here:
www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm

I am going to ask a few questions to help us understand Gunner's situation better.

What is your name?  I am Romy.

Is the expressing going well? How often are you expressing him? Dogs on pred drink more and therefore pee more. He may need to be expressed every 2 to 3 hours while on the pred. During the day does he stay dry between expressing sessions or is there wet bedding?

What was the date you started the pred. Do you know how many days he will be on the full dose of 5mg once a day before a taper is started?

You mention that he does not seem to be in pain.  Sometimes the signs of pain are subtle: shivering, trembling, yelping when picked up or moved, reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move, tight tense tummy, restless, can't find a comfortable position. Ears pinned back, arched back. Holding front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight, head held high or nose to the ground. Not their normal perky selves.

The Pepcid is really important to prevent serious stomach issues. When you ask the vet about the Pepcid phrase the question to your vet this particular way:" Is there a medical/health reason for my dog not take Pepcid?" If the answer is no, the usual dose during a disc episode is Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours. Give the pred with a meal as added protection.

Excluding an emergency of pain not being controlled or diminishment of nerve functions that require prompt vet help, we have excellent resources for many IVDD questions members have. While you are waiting for a reply, do check out our "All things IVDD" resources for getting the recovery suite setup to an overview of just how Conservative Treatment works:
www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm

Healing thoughts for Gunner.

Lejla, expressing is a new skill to learn.  So do bring Gunner in so that you can get another hands-on- top-of-your-hands lesson. Re-reviewing the video and the tips will allow you to get more out of the lesson.  Note you can also express for poop:   www.dodgerslist.com/literature/Expressing.htm

The zinc in Desitin can be toxic if licked and injested.  Aquaphor Baby or regular Healing Ointment does not contain any zinc.

Prednisone is expected to resolve all painful swelling in 7-30 days.  So typically pain meds would need to be on board.  If you are seeing pain, then advocate for tramadol and methocarbamol.


Please check the bottle to give us the full info on Pred.  We count the number of days up at the anti-inflammatory dose. Taper doses are for testing if Pred needs to be continued if pain were to be seen.

18lbs
Prednisone as of 8/23: 5 mg 2x/day for ? days, then taper doses

Expressing is a skill and takes practice to learn. You are right, it is not easy.  Don't be concerned if you need to have the vet show you again. I had a hard time learning when I had to express my Frankie. I had to go back several times to have the vet or vet tech show me how to do it. It was hard but I learned it. You will learn too. Than caring for Gunner will be so much easier.

With the pred, the full anti-inflammatory dose, which Gunner is on now is usually used for about 7 days. Then a taper is tried to see if pain re-emerges. If pain is seen when the taper is started, the full anti-inflammatory dose is used again and then another taper is tried. There can be several tapers before the swelling is gone. Once the swelling is gone, no more meds are needed. The only thing left is the completion of the 8 weeks of crate rest.

Benadryl is sometimes used to keep the dog calm in the crate. If you are going to try Benadryl, make sure the vet tells you the exact dose to use. There are other medications the vet can prescribe if necessary. Trazodone and Acepromazine are often used.

You can also try some natural methods.

Use an oral calmer in combination with a Pheromone diffuser. This seems to work best. It takes several days for these to start working - it isn't immediate but they are a much better option if you can avoid heavy duty prescription sedatives such as Acepromazine, Trazodone, etc. with. Of course ALWAYS keep your vet in the loop on all things you give your dog. Other product brands may be available in your area or on-line… just shop by the active ingredient(s) on the label and the quantity for best price.

Place a DAP pheromone diffuser at floor level where the recovery suite is. Some brands to consider:
--Comfort Zone (DAP) wall plug-in diffuser
www.comfortzone.com/dogs/products
--Adaptil (DAP) wall plug in diffuser
www.adaptil.com/

Use a diffuser with one oral calmer from below:
1) ANXITANE® S chewable tabs contain 50 mg L-Theanine, an amino acid that acts neurologically to help keep dogs calm, relaxed www.virbacvet.com/products/detail/anxitane-l-theanine-chewable-tablets/behavioral-health
2) Composure Soft Chews are colostrum based like calming mother's milk and contain 21 mg of L-Theanine.
www.vetriscience.com/composure-soft-dogs-MD-LD.php

Bach's Rescue Remedy is a liquid herb combo to help with relaxation
www.bachflower.com/rescue-remedy-pet/

You can also try draping a blanket over the crate to create a den like feeling. That sometimes helps with calming.

Keep us up to date on  how the expressing is going. You will soon get the hang of it.

Dear Roomy and Frankie,

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your advice.

I worked more on expressing and have looked at different ways folks are doing it online. It was super helpful and last night I did a little bit better job. Also, I got A&D ointment last night and applied to his buttocks and he is looking better already. He is not trying to lick it off at all.

He has been on that [Pred] dose for 11 full days. I can tell that he does not need that much since he is ultra hungry when fed so steroids are working. I will see the vet today and start tapering. Thank you so much for this piece of advice as well!

I gave him two pain pills too yesterday (Tramadol) to see if I am maybe missing his signs of pain and I did not see any change in his behavior. He was not happier or sadder because of it.

I will go the natural way to try and calm him down. Those tips are amazing. I never heard anything about stuff like this. I think this would be great for him either way since he is very anxious. But on the other hand when he is this anxious when I am gone it makes me think that he is doing better and that he is not in tons of pain.


Dear Julie and Nala,

I appreciate the tip. I will think of that method too. I saw youtube videos and they make it seem so easy that I know it is experience and knowing your dog. I am trained medical nurse, but for humans only so this is not strange to me at all.

Also- he has been pooping every day, very nice formed stool, but how do I know if he is backed up? I am concerned that he might not poop enough so I will definitely ask my vet to see if he thinks that Gunny has a lots of stool.

Thank you all again. This forum is the best thing that happened to me since Gunny got hurt!

Have a great weekend!

Hello all,

Expressing: I took Gunny to the vet just to find out that he needed direct cath since he was super full of pee; not just that but his urinary tract and his penis are "strange looking" per my two vets. The reason why I was not able to express his pee is that his anatomy is not allowing it like it would for other dogs that did not have pre-existing issues. Suffice to say, I already took him to the vet twice in the past four days so they can direct cath him and help with peeing.

Have you ever had anything like this before? No matter what I have tried three drops was it. I am thinking about cathing him at home myself, but will check with the vet if this is a good idea. Now that he has been cathed he is not peeing as much around, especially in the first 24 hrs. I have been attempting expressing as if nothing is wrong, but still no results.

Neuro signs: Now the good news! His right back leg is showing signs of neurological recovery per my vet which is a great sign. She stated that he would be a great candidate for water therapy, but I am not sure if it too early to start it. She is licensed in acupuncture and a surgery so she thinks that we can get him to walk again with this conservative approach, and maybe fix his penile area....

Pred taper: He is currently on 5 mg a day. This is day three now. Since the pee was removed he is born again dog. I find it super hard to keep him crated, but I have been relentless and so far so good. His pain level does not seem to be higher than before. He is more alert and back to more anxious self than before cathing. He was even interested in playing with me on both days and it has been a long time since he was in the mood to do that. He is also a big lover and since the pee is out he has been trying to kiss me a lot.

Therapy: my vet is recommending putting him in a sling that supports his back and starting to exercise him with great support. I have a picture of this creation, but basically it is a two wood triangles conected together by one central piece and dog is placed into a piece of fleece that provides support while he is being pushed (triangle has four wheels). She does not think it is too soon to start this, but I do especially since it has only been two weeks since injury.

Not sure if it is too early to push him this hard....

Thank you!

Lejla, my Nala just got off 2 months of crate rest and is already able to go down her dog ramp. Muscles come back fast. The spinal cord doesn't. Often well meaning people urge you to start exercising your dog. They seem souch better. However it's like taking off a cast too soon. The disc scar tissue isn't strong enough yet. 8 weeks will be over before you know it. Then Gunner can exercise and will quickly get his strength back. Water therapy is great. It helpedy Nala walk again. Best wishes.

Yes. He has been on Pepcid AC since Friday. I give him 5 mg with each 5 mg dose of Prednisone.

[18lbs]
Prednisone [as of 8/23]: 5 mg twice a day [for 11 days, then taper 9/2
Pepcid Ac 5mg 2x/day
Prozosin  ?mgs  ?x/day]

Now this could be me, but I have a feeling that my vet is cool charging me $40 every two days for cathing . Now that being said, it is the fact is that Gunner always had issues with peeing. He would hold it in 8 to 10 hours every day and sometimes 12 to 14 hrs. At first I was surprised and tried everything to get him to pee more often, but no matter what I tried he had his own schedule. I thought that he has sensitive area since his penis is exposed so he did not want to urinate due to pain, but now I am thinking that is an anatomy issue as well.

That is a great question you ask- if tube can get in then it should come out too. I have seen them express tiny amount, but much better than me so I know it is possible, but it might require much more effort than it would for a different dog. He never has a flow with expressing only dribbles. But, I will ask that question today. I am bringing him in for another cath. And he has been on Prazosin since Friday as well, but I did not notice any improvement. I have printed out more picks of his anatomy so I can work on it more. I think it is a hard skill to learn, but I really want him to be able to pee and not to cath him on a regular basis. Also, she told me that he spasms when she tried to express so she tried having them relax and try again and they had some success.

I am comitted to crating him even though he wants to roam everywhere, as if nothing is wrong with his legs. Dogs are just amazing. People would sit and cry and lament loss of walking and he is adjusting to it really well. I miss his tail wagging the most and of course I miss having him walk. I see people on the street with dogs and I wonder if they know how lucky they are . Thank you again!

Hello all,
Gunner is doing great now, walking and all!
We did six weeks of crate rest since he was getting really antsy/healthy it was super difficult to keep him still. My vet has urged me to start therapy as soon as possible, but I did not since it makes common sense to allow for something that was hurt to heal first. I am very glad that I had this forum to educate me and prepare me for what comes with having your dog not being able to walk or pee by himself.
I had the hardest time with expressing and have started Gunner on scheduled catheterizations (I was a nurse so it was not bad at all to learn); but after two of these for some magical reason my ability to express turned on (or Gunner was sick of being cathed at least three times a day) and I was able to express him with ease. I have tried for a month to do it before and struggled, but once we started cathing as if Gunner was not having any…not sure what has happened, but I was super happy not to have to cath him since infection control is huge issues with cathing and I was scared that he will get a major bug and get sick. I made a big mistake in the beginning because I did not know that he needed to be expressed. I do not blame my vet for not letting me know, but since he leaked for two weeks his bladder has extended and they told me that it might never come back to normal and that he might never feel the need to pee again. I hope that you can learn from my mistake and be far more diligent about making sure that either you or your vet express him at least twice a day (my vet charged me $40 a pop-oy!).
However, after six weeks of crate rest it was time to start physical therapy. We did an initial exam with the surgeon and a physical therapist. They checked Gunner ability to feel pain first and he had pain sensitivity in his back feet, but it was very weak. Chances of walking again are far better if that deep pain sensitivity is strong. I was ready to start the therapy either way since I did not do surgery even though I had some doubts in the beginning.
Gunner and my mom did eight weeks of PT. First month it was twice a week at $115 a pop; then once a week for one month. Therapy included walking on the treadmill, electro therapy, laser therapy and deep tissue massage; and I took him to the acupuncturist ($40 per treatment) as well as the main therapy was going to increase strength of this muscles even more. There is clinical evidence that acupuncture works in dogs.
And as he was starting to get better he slowly started to walk. Seemingly, it happened over night, but it took a lot of work on everybody’s part to get him to stand up and walk. Both of my doctors stated that it is a miracle he was walking, but I was thinking to myself before I dropped all that moola, both of them told me he will walk. If that was the case how come he is a miracle dog?
Regardless, as he started to walk he started to pee everywhere. Every time he would hit the floor when his back legs gave out he peed a little. Now this was a huge mess, but he no longer needed to be expressed and my worries about UTI went down a little bit. So he started to wear diapers. I tried many kinds (all baby diapers) since lady in a dog store told me that it is the same thing. And dog diapers are super expensive. The ones that worked the best were Luvs size 5 (Huggies were horrible-they leaked and caused major diaper rash ). Then there was a new problem, diapers did not want to stay put so I got “CuteBone” female diapers (link included on the bottom ) and put them over the baby diaper and voila. It was amazing. No more leaks everywhere. But now I was on diaper duty or as my friend calls in in a diaper tunnel. I have tried male wraps, but they would not stay and they could not possibly take care of the poop.
He still poops without knowing it is happening, but with him wearing a diaper this is not a problem at all. He never tries to take a diaper off unless it is soiled. This is important since he will be spending eight hours alone and I am glad that he knows to take it off when it is wet, but sometimes he cannot noticed that he pooped in it, but it stinks so you will notice for sure.
He has been on cranberry chews since the beginning and not a single UTI ever. I had him checked once (his PT thought that he was having one) but it was super clear with no issues at all. I cannot tell you what a big help all your advice was! It saved both of us from tons of pain and expenses.
I bought a baby carrier cart (link included and not for $100) for him in the beginning to make sure he gets fresh air; and we have built a wheelchair that he hated using, but it worked until he started to walk. He loved being taken out and would not try to get out of the cart. I still use it sometimes when it rains. He is walking great, it is more than spinal walk since he can turn, but if he needs to speed up he starts scooting that in turn takes his diaper off so I chase him all around the yard to put it on. Once he was able to walk I got him a super awesome harness (link included . At first it looked bulky, but it works great because it has a pick up strap in the middle so every time he drops a bit I can lean down and help him pick up back again. It is yet another great product and assisted us greatly in helping increase quality of life for Gunner.

Baby cart I got (not for $100, but for $20 at the used baby stuff store)
www.target.com/p/chicco-multi-keyfit-caddy-car-seat-carrier/-/A-13778502?lnk=rec|pdpipadexsrch|related_prods_vv|pdpipadexsrch|13778502|1
How to build a dog wheelchair (make sure you measure your dog well)

CuteBone diaper covers
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01FM1FXJ4/ref=od_aui_detailpages02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Cranberry supplement
www.amazon.com/NaturVet-Cranberry-Relief-Echinacea-Chews/dp/B00LGTQEOK/ref=pd_nav_hcs_bia_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=25N2VWNFBT19EK0WM8XX
Harness
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HY6TFKE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Thank you Dodgerlist without you this road would have been far more difficult. I hope what I shared helps the next person!
There is hope and your dog will walk!