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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Mar 27, 2016 9:51:39 GMT -7
Hi! We have two doxies Chewy and Porky, both 5 years old. One morning 3 weeks ago Chewy woke up crying and I knew he was in pain, took him out potty and when we cameback he ate his breakfast and want it to go out again, we went on a 20 minute walk!!! He seems ok but I just noticed he didn't want to walk fast or run so I thought something was wrong, anyway took him to the vet and he told me about IVDD, put him on crate rest but he said 3 weeks and some
[15 lbs] rimadyl as of 3/6 (half) twice a day for 3 weeks. as of [3/24ish?] extended for 3 weeks Pepcid AC ?mgs ?x/day to suppress stomach acids Rimadyl causes?
The 3 weeks had passed but I had contact him and told him that everywhere I was reading is always 6-8 weeks, He prescribed more rimadyl and another 3 weeks crate rest. Chewy seems fine, he is happy, he can walk and even run if I let him , but I am afraid tha he will get hurt again, especially because 3 weeks is not enought. I guess my concern is...why the vet will just give him 3 weeks? I am still keeping him for another 3 weeks , but should I do it 100% strict ...I am very confused
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 27, 2016 10:10:38 GMT -7
Alejandra, welcome! How conservative treatment works is quite simple once you understand the principals. Do know that some vets are new to IVDD. This is the reason for YOU to be fully educated on just one disease-- IVDD. This way you know what to monitor for, when to bring up concerns to your vet and when to ignore harmful advise. It sounds like your vet may be open to learning what you learn here. That is a good vet who knows there are things that can still be learned to be more helpful for his future patients. Consider introducing us with our intro letter you can d/l with an order of free brochures: Ask Linda to send you a free packet of our literature including many vets have in their toolbox for their clients, our "Crate Rest Recovery Process" brochure. : www.dodgerslist.com/literature/litorder.htmYou will want the full story on who conservative treatment works by going to our main Dodgerslist web page to view this link about the 4 phases of healing: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmSo my questions are: --- Since the anti-inflammatory drug Riimadyl is used only until all the painful swelling is gone. When you stopped Rimadyl, did you observe any pain that would cause the vet to extend Rimadyl for three weeks? -- There are no medications to heal a disc. Disc healing (formation of strong secure scar tissue) is dependant on limited movement of the spine. When the back moves the vertebrae push on discs. A weak still healing disc can't stand the pressure yet and can re-tear. ☐ Let us know you are on the same page about crate rest. The hallmark component of conservative treatment is the crate rest part. With little blood supply discs are much slower to form good scar tissue than it takes a blood rich broken bone to heal. That 6 weeks of a cast for a broken arm to heal is similar to the recovery suite being a kind of cast for the disc. 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 for 8 weeks provides limited movement to allow good strong scar tissue to form. Super tried and true tips for setting up the recovery suite in far right column- see the pink box: www.dodgerslist.com/literature.htm STRICT means: - no laps - no couches - no baths - no sleeping with you - no chiro therapy - no dragging or meandering at potty times. Carry to and from the recovery suite to the potty place and then allow a very few limited footsteps. Using a sling (long winter scarf, ace bandage, belt) will save your back and help to keep a wobbly dog's back aligned and butt from tipping over. A harness and 6 foot leash is to control speed and keep footsteps to minimum as you stand in one spot. An ex-pen in the grass is an excellent alternative to minimizing footsteps with the physical and visual to indicate there will be no sniff festing going on!
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 27, 2016 10:12:42 GMT -7
Which dog is Chewy in your avatar? Are they siblings...same mother or father? There is thought IVDD has a genetic component.
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Mar 27, 2016 10:59:00 GMT -7
Chewy is the ginger and Porky the black/tan ( can't really see it on the picture ) They are not siblings, according to the paperwork I got from my son. See, my son got them from a pet store and a year later he ask me if I want them , and of course my husband and I love them and we were the ones taking care of them already anyway , we wouldn't said no, so here we are in our 50's with two babies, they had bring so much joy to our lives , we can't imagine not having them around. We just want them to have a happy wonderful life, we taking them with us almost everywhere and with this going on is just taking a little adjustment and of course sad, because Chewy have to stay in his crate. But, we are very thankful that he is walking and waggin his tail. ?
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 27, 2016 11:20:12 GMT -7
Alehandra, wonderful they both found such a good and caring home with you guys!!! This is a bump in the road of life. With your commitment to 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times for 8 weeks, Chewy will resume his fun life again after graduation day. When you stopped Rimadyl, did you observe any pain that would cause the vet to extend Rimadyl for three weeks? What is Chewy's weight and can you get Pepcid AC on board? The manufacturer pkg insert warns about gastrointestinal problems as the natural defenses of the stomach to shield against stomach acid and blood clotting is hindered when taking NSAIDs. Red flag signs of GI upset of not eating, vomit, red or black bloody diarrhea can quickly lead to bleeding ulcers or life threaening holes in the stomach or intestine. Phrase the question to your vet in this particular way: "Is there any medical reason my dog may not take Pepcid AC (famotidine)?" If there is no reason, we follow vets who are proactive in protecting the stomach by giving doxies 5MG Pepcid AC (generic name is famotidine) 30 mins prior to NSAID and thereafter every 12 hours. Give NSAID with a meal for extra protection. Knowledge about each med your dog takes is the added layer of protection. Good link to bookmark and read about Pepcid AC: www.marvistavet.com/pharmacy-center.pmlThe usual dose during a disc episode is Pepcid AC (famotidine) for dogs is 0.44mg per pound 30 mins before the anti-inflammatory and thereafter every 12 hours. Give the anti-inflammatory with a meal as added protection. www.1800petmeds.com/Famotidine-prod11171.html
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Mar 27, 2016 11:31:47 GMT -7
Yes, I had actually contact the vet because 2 days before [approx 3/24?] his last dose of rimadyl , Chewy was showing signs of pain, that's when I questioned the vet about the meds and to extend the crate rest. Chewy weights
15 pounds rimadyl 25mgs tab as of 3/6: 12.5 mgs 2x/day for 6 weeks. Pepcid AC ?mgs ?x/day to suppress stomach acids Rimadyl causes?
and I will contact the vet to ask why he is not recommending Pepcid AC, is that something I can get over the counter or do I need a prescription ? So, I guess I will do the crate rest for 8 weeks and not 6 .
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 27, 2016 11:58:16 GMT -7
Let us know how many mgs are in one Rimadyl tab so we can computer how much is 1/2 tab in mgs.
Pepcid AC (famotidine) is the same stuff people use for heartburn, ulcers. Brand X is also available, less expensive. Look for one single active ingredient: famotidine. A 10 mg tablet is ideal to split down to a 5mg dose 2x/day.
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Mar 27, 2016 14:37:34 GMT -7
They are 25 mg in one rimadyl tablet and Chewy takes 1/2 tablet twice a day , morning and night with his meal
And I was thinking... How the vet knows if the swelling is gone? He haven't done x- rays or haven't see Chewy again, maybe I am giving him rimadyl and he doesn't need it...
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PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 27, 2016 17:30:57 GMT -7
Alehandra, there is no way to know when the painful inflammation is gone. The vet must take a guess. You last reported pain about March 24ish? two days before the end of 1st 3 week course of Rimadyl. When a vet guess the swelling is gone, he calls for a stop of Rimadyl. Usually vets will try a guess with a 7 or 14 day course. You can always discuss with your vet. If you would see pain on the stop of Rimadyl, that would show Chewy needs it a bit longer and then take another guess to stop it.
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Mar 27, 2016 21:49:38 GMT -7
Chewy is on rimadyl for 25 days already, should I stop it now? I don't want to over medicated him...
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Mar 28, 2016 6:39:45 GMT -7
In looking back through the posts, it looks as though the last time you saw pain was March 24, is that correct? If so, then the pain you saw on that date indicates that Chewy still had swelling pressing on the nerves of the spine on that date and still needed the Rimadyl as of March 24th. You can speak to the vet about when he would like to stop the Rimadyl, possibly in another few days, to test for pain/swelling. Pain = swelling = more time on all meds. Should Rimadyl be stopped and no pain returns, then no more meds are needed. However, you do need your vet's direction on this and shouldn't stop any meds on your own.
Remember also if Chewy is to remain on the Rimadyl, you need to speak to the vet about adding Pepcid AC to protect her from the side effects of the Rimadyl.
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Mar 28, 2016 11:03:59 GMT -7
When I spoke to the vet, he prescribed rimadyl for another 3 weeks, I guess I can contact him and ask if is ok to stop the rimadyl or if he wants Chewy to finished the 21 pills. I will talk to him today and ask about adding Pepcid AC. Thank you so much for all the information, help and support I am getting thru all of you, I really appreciated.
Hi all! I just want some advise on this issue. We have a vacation booked for April 17 but now with Chewy on his crate rest, I am not sure if we should go. We have a very caring loving dog sitter , she has taken care of them since we have them and she is our friend too, but I don't want Chewy to be upset if we leave him. He loves her and her house but now it will be different because he won't be allowed to play or run with her dog and Porky. I am so conflicted with this. In reality if it is up to me, I will cancel, but my husband work so hard and is looking foward this vacation. He feels that with me or her, Chewy will have to be on his crate anyway and He thinks it will be the same thing, because she loves them the same way we do.
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 29, 2016 21:31:04 GMT -7
Hi Alejandra!
If you can educate your friend and pet sitter about IVDD and the care that Chewy needs while he is on crate rest and she is ok with taking care of him under the circumstances, it might be ok. Tell her about your thread on Dodgerslist and perhaps she can post while you are gone and we can give support to her if she needs it. It would be a good idea to keep in close touch with her while you are away as well. Make sure she has the Vet's info also.
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Mar 31, 2016 15:55:06 GMT -7
Well, this is the end of week 4 of crate rest for Chewy and we stop the Rimadyl today. He looks fine, I don't think he is in pain, he is eating well and I am carrying him out to pee and poop. Lets, hope he will be ok and comfortable without the Rimadyl for the next 4 weeks of crate rest. I have read other posts and I noticed the have most of the dogs in 2,3 or even 4 different medication, and Chewy was just given Rimadyl , why is that?
[15 pounds Rimadyl 25mgs tab as of 3/6: 12.5 mgs 2x/day for 25 days. ]
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Mar 31, 2016 17:48:11 GMT -7
Alejandra, typically for most dogs a disc episode is quite painful. Rimadyl can take 7-30 days to resolve painful spinal cord swelling. So to provide comfort from pain, pain meds which work in 1 hour are prescribed. Chewy it seems was atypical and display none of the usual signs of pain: ◻︎shivering-trembling ◻︎yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎tight tense tummy ◻︎restless, can't find a comfortable position. ◻︎arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎head held high or nose to the ground. ◻︎looks up with just their eyes and do not move their head and neck briskly. ◻︎holds front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ◻︎reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move ◻︎not their normal perky selves
All anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs like Rimadyl or steroid anti-inflammatories) cause extra stomach acids which typically lead to GI tract damage of not eating, loose stools to dangerous bleeding ulcers. Pepcid AC is used to be proactive not waiting for another problem to develop on top of an already bad situation of a disc episode.
Had you ever gotten Pepcid AC on board?
Got our fingers crossed with the test-for-pain stop of Rimadyl you will not see any pain surfacing.
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Mar 31, 2016 19:42:29 GMT -7
Yes, We did get Pepcid AC on board, but now I am worry that the pain will comeback, should I just ask the vet if I should continue the Rimadyl ? I just don't want to have to start all over again... ? So, is possible that is not IVDD and maybe something else? How can the vet find out for sure? Should I take him to a specialist? But anyway to make sure I will continue the crate rest to complete the 8 weeks.
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Post by Pauliana on Mar 31, 2016 20:45:37 GMT -7
IVDD is diagnosed by symptoms, and also knowing a breed is predisposed to having the disease. It used to be considered a Dachshund disease as it is so common in the breed, many other small breeds of dogs get it now also. If you have any doubt at all, I would consult a specialist. A Veterinary Neurologist sees many causes of IVDD daily, much more than a general Vet does. Here is what to look for in a specialist. This article also has a search engine to find one in your area. dodgerslist.com/literature/VetchkList.htmGenerally speaking, X-rays are used to rule out other problems mimicking IVDD as they show bone and not soft tissue such as discs.. Some institutions have the new, state- of-the-art x-ray technology not available in most general practices that can offer better disc information. Typically X-rays can be used to “suspicion” a disc problem if read and interpreted by a vet experienced in diagnosing IVDD from x-rays. MRI, myelogram, and CT’s can prove the exact location and are used by surgeons in planning surgery.
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Marjorie
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Post by Marjorie on Apr 1, 2016 4:32:24 GMT -7
Just be careful if you do go to a specialist and they want to take x-rays that they don't want to sedate and anesthetize Chewy. Anesthesia is dangerous for a dog with IVDD as it relaxes all the core muscles that support the spine. My vet always seems to want to give anesthesia to my pets when x-rays are done so be cautious of that. MRIs and CT scans would only be done, as Pauliana said, just prior to surgery, which would certainly not be necessary in Chewy's situation.
Some dogs are very good at hiding pain though you did say that he woke up crying that one morning. Pain also returned on 3/24, which was two days before the Rimadyl would have run out. It would seem that the vet extended the time period for the Rimadyl and crate rest but didn't give him pain meds. What signs of pain did you see on 3/24 and how long did that pain continue without pain meds?
My Jeremy also started walking slowly the morning of his injury, though he did take his usual long walk, and by that afternoon, he started showing signs of pain and was taken to the vet. So you may have caught it early enough to prevent the disc damage to get to the point where it was very painful by starting the Rimadyl and strict crate rest immediately. If it's a mild disc episode and the swelling from the damaged disc wasn't pressing very hard on the nerves of the spine, the Rimadyl might have been sufficient enough to keep that swelling down where it wouldn't have caused much pain.
It's great news that Chewy has been able to stop the Rimadyl without pain returning. You now have proof that the swelling is gone. Now only the rest of the 8 weeks of strict crate rest is necessary to continue to heal the damaged disc and to allow it for form scar tissue.
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Apr 1, 2016 10:52:39 GMT -7
Thank you so much Paulina for all your information and Marjorie for such a detailed and encouraging response, it definitely clear everything I had spinning in my head. The pain was only for the day he was supposed to finish the Rimadyl , but since I contacted the vet and he gave me more for rimadyl for Chewy the pain didn't last long. Now he shows no signs of pain after 2 days without the Rimadyl. The vet thinks is not neccesary to do x - rays for now, just to continue the crate rest. I think that's true, we were able to caught it early but I am so nervous , thinking the pain may comeback. I need to be positive and think that he will just continue to get better. Thank you for your support.
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Apr 6, 2016 21:06:41 GMT -7
Well... Chewy is back on rimadyl, he was not himself and seems that the pain is back , how long will it take for the pain to go away and how long is safe for him to keep taking the Rimadyl ? I am just so worry about him, is Chewy going to be herself again or is he going to have to live with pain? And now he is having anal glands issues, can I take him to the vet to get his anal glands express , since he is in crate rest, I am not sure if this will be safe but is really bothering him.
[15 pounds Rimadyl 25mgs tab as of 3/6: 12.5 mgs 2x/day for 25 days. as of date: Pepcid AC ]
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Post by Pauliana on Apr 6, 2016 21:28:23 GMT -7
Hi Alejandra, The pain will go away when the swelling is gone. Did he do anything to re injure his disc? How long did he seem to be pain free without the Rimadyl? If he has re-injured his disc, crate rest has to start over from the day of the relapse. It can take from 7-30 days to get the swelling down and during that time he needs to be on a pain reliever as the Vet's experienced with IVDD know, a disc episode is very painful. Rimadyl is not a pain reliever it is an anti inflammatory used to take down swelling over time. Tramadol is a general pain reliever, Gabapentin is for nerve pain and Methocarbamol is for muscle spasms. Pain slows down healing so it should not be tolerated. Please read this for more information: dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpain.htm "There is medicine and there is healing. Healing requires rest and comfort, and all patients should be kept as comfortable as possible. Studies have shown a correlation between less pain and faster recovery from illness, surgery, or injury." Barak Benaryeh, DVM, DABVP. Identifying Pain in Geriatric Patients. Veterinary Team Brief. NOV/Dec 2015. Once the swelling is gone, the pain will be gone too and then no further medications would be needed. I think it would cause too much movement of his back to have his anal glands expressed..
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 7, 2016 7:54:30 GMT -7
Alejandra, can you tell us specifically what you observed regarding pain signs. ◻︎shivering-trembling ◻︎yelping when picked up or moved ◻︎tight tense tummy ◻︎restless, can't find a comfortable position. ◻︎arched back, ears pinned back ◻︎head held high or nose to the ground. ◻︎not their normal perky selves. ◻︎looks up with just their eyes and do not move their head and neck briskly. ◻︎holds front or back leg flamingo style not wanting to bear weight ◻︎reluctant to move much in crate such as shift positions or slow to move
Let us know what the current med list is now: 15 pounds Rimadyl 25mgs tab as of 3/6: 12.5 mgs 2x/day for 25 days. as of 4/6: ?mgs ?x/day for ? days Pepcid AC ?mgs ?x/day
Now that he is back on Rimadyl, are there any signs of pain indicating a pain med should also be on board?
On March 31 when you stopped the last dose of Rimadyl til yesterday 4/6, can you think of any increase in activity to the back during the course of those 6 days that might account for the pain you saw. Was he doing anything that may have been too much movement for the early healing disc causing damage to the scar tissue forming?
With the new round of Rimadyl, had the vet examined Chewy or was the Rx done over the phone?
Re: anal glands, I agree with Pauliana, you want to eliminate having to move/transport unnecessarily. There is also a concern that the gland may be infected causing pain signs similar to a disc episode. IF, if the gland is impacted it does need to be attended to by the vet and something for the infection. Transport him carefully in a crate. Pad out the extra room with a rolled up blanket. Padding is to keep his body from shifting when you corner or break. You might stay with him in the car until he vet is ready to see him avoiding a possible chaotic waiting room? Receptionist can phone you and you and Chewy could then go directly to the exam room.
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Apr 7, 2016 20:01:03 GMT -7
the only sign from the list was not their normal perky selve, and he did look tired and sleepy. I contact the vet and he told me over the phone to start the Rimadyl again. I took him today to the vet and they expressed his anal glands, they were full and I think that was bothering him, he is more alert now , I don't think he is in pain at all and they told me he didn't have any infection, my only concern now is that the foul smell is not going away, I don't know if it is something else causing this. No, he didn't have any increase in activity, I still have him on crate rest and carry him in and out potty.
15 lbs Rimadyl [as of 3/6: 12.5 mgs 2x/day for 25 days. as of 4/6]: 1/2 tablet every 12 hours for 10 days with food (25 mg tablets) Pepcid AC 5 mg twice a day (30 minutes before Rimadyl )
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 8, 2016 8:48:10 GMT -7
Alejandra, there may be a bit of anal gland residue causing foul smell. Take an unscented baby wipe to clear fur and skin. Another option is brew some decaf green tea. Cool and dampen a washcloth to clean fur and skin in that area. Will leave a fresh, earthy fragrance.
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Apr 8, 2016 9:53:36 GMT -7
Thank you so much Paula! Yes, you are right , today the smell is less and I don't smell it in his fur and skin anymore... I was cleaning him yesterday with warm water and baking soda, I will definatley do the decaf green tea. You are a blessing , the help and support I am getting from dodgerslist is pricelessChewy is doing much, much better today and I hope he continues to recover until his crate rest is over.
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 8, 2016 10:03:42 GMT -7
Full anal glands are very uncomfortable! So glad to hear Chewy can now continue healing his disc in comfort. Thank you for the very kind comment... makes my day!
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Apr 8, 2016 14:07:31 GMT -7
Hi Paula! Can I do reg green tea or do I have to use decaf?
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Post by Romy & Frankie on Apr 8, 2016 14:13:50 GMT -7
It is best to use the decaf in case the dog licks it off.
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Post by Alejandra & Chewy on Apr 12, 2016 9:22:28 GMT -7
Hi all! Well, Chewy is doing much better with his crate rest , back to his normal self which make a little harder to keep him in the crate. When we carry him out to potty ,he just wants to run! But, we are doing good. He is good from his anal glands and that smell is gone, but I noticed that now he develop like a rash on his belly and he is a little itchy and some weird smell... Can this be yeast infection? Should I take him to the vet for this or can I do some natural remedies at home.? I dont want to panic if is something that I can treat myself with some products from the pet store .
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PaulaM
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Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
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Post by PaulaM on Apr 12, 2016 9:29:29 GMT -7
Broken skin can easily become infected with urine scald.
A weird smell can be pus (a thick yellowish or greenish opaque liquid produced in infected tissue) The concern is that red broken pussy skin is a tough to treat staph infection requiring antibiotic. A mild red rash, no broken skin might be cared for with an antibiotic ointment such as Neosporin available on grocery store shelves.
If there is any doubt, touch base with your vet...staph infection is nothing to fool around with.
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