StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
|
Post by StevieLuv on Oct 13, 2014 9:42:27 GMT -7
My Stevie didn't even try to stand until about 5 weeks into crate rest - she did walk and run again. IVDD is a disease of patience, so don't let your Vet try to convince you otherwise!
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Oct 13, 2014 10:53:53 GMT -7
Thanks Paula and Stevie
In my opinion, she is eating regularly, peeing as soon as we go out every time (that is very normal, she would always go out and pee 1st thing, always). #2 is not as often as before---(she used to almost poop every time she would go out.) - now she is only going twice a day but she is doing this on her own. She hunches her back as much as she can to poop. She doesn't whine when I pick up her. She doesn't try and get up. I think she knows she can't and has gotten to the point of not trying. I did have her out in a separate dog bed while I cleaned up and fixed her crate, she did pull her self up so she could get her water all on her own. That was saturday and hasn't done that since but I also haven't put her in a postion to have to. I keep her water bowl right outside her crate and she will love her head just enough to drink when needed. It is slightly elevated on a folded up towel so she doesn't have to reach far. She kept flipping over her water bowl when I had it setting inside. Her last pain meds were at 9 G and 12 T. No prednisone.
Thanks again for all of the responses. My friends think I am crazy to have not made a decision. I won't do that until I feel her quality of life is not as she would want. Right now she is sleeping, not much different than what she would be doing otherwise. She had already slowed down a lot over the last year---the fact that she is eating and potty for me is a decent sign. That she barks and squeaked her toys and wagged her tail were good signs that she is ok.
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Oct 13, 2014 14:12:47 GMT -7
Update from vet appt.
Some feeling in hind legs-both
Extended prednisone, same dosage.
May switch upon my return later this week. I was weary of a change in meds while I am out of town.
No change in dosage for Tramadol or gabapentin
Vet was not optimistic that Trixie would recover use of legs.
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Oct 17, 2014 8:58:06 GMT -7
Just a quick question--Trixie is paying a lot of attention to her left front paw--licking almost constantly. I don't see anything on it. Wiped clean with wet towel--could she be feeling something coming back or should I be concerned and that her to the vet. She is not biting it, just licking it constantly.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
|
Post by PaulaM on Oct 17, 2014 10:11:41 GMT -7
It is possible that neuropathic pain could be developing. Keep a very close eye that licking does not progress to biting chewing. Gabapentin is the drug that helps with this kind of abnormal pain. Would you give us an updated list of current meds, mgs, frequency.
Have a towel at the ready to fold lengthwise should you see chewing. Wrap bulky folded towel around neck and secure closed with some duct tape so she will not be able to reach the paw. At the vet you will get an e-collar and see if there needs to be a change to the gabapentin to help. Everyone has experienced numbness or pins and needles tingling in your legs when sitting in a bad position for too long a time. Your dog can be feeling abnormal nerve sensations that are mild pins and needles to quite painful burning, on-fire feeling that makes them bite to stop the pain by chewing off a limb.
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Oct 17, 2014 11:34:52 GMT -7
Thank you for the response.
She gave up licking it now and is sleeping soundly.
Her meds are: [11 lbs] Tramadol 50 mg 1/4 every 8 hrs Gabapentin 100 mg 1/2 twice a day Prednisone 5mg 1/2 twice a day, been on it since 10/3 no taper to date. Pepcid AC just before prednisone
I am supposed to go to vet in a day or so and the regular vet may switch to a different steroid.
At this point we are just trying to see if any improvement may come.
|
|
StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
|
Post by StevieLuv on Oct 18, 2014 8:14:54 GMT -7
Hi Marcie, I went and bought some parrot food bowls to use in Stevie's crate. The attach firmly and are easy to change out, but are flip proof! Ask in a pet store for the bowls used for the big parrots - like cockatoos or macaws.(They are notorious for throwing their bowls around if they can get them loose...) Keep in mind that no Vet can say how much function will return. Some dogs have it happen in weeks, some in months, so don't get discouraged. Trixie will heal up in her own good time, and then you can see what is happening with leg function.
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Oct 18, 2014 8:52:54 GMT -7
Thanks for all the feedback and encouragement.
Any tips for reducing crate boredom. Like something easy to chew on that won't encourage her to move her neck a lot. She is wagging her tag and squeaking a flat toy but I feel like she is just plain bored. One can only sleep so much.
I have made her 1st appt for acupunture this coming week.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
|
Post by PaulaM on Oct 18, 2014 9:24:29 GMT -7
Most dogs need some 16-18 hours of sleep per day, people sleep 8-9 hours day. What are they doing in the crate? Laying around and sleeping! Don't give into the temptation to start a treat routine to combat non-existent boredom. Adding a bunch of treats as entertainment contributes to weight gain which isn't a good thing.
During the day try the coffee table or the dinning room table so there will be a view out a window and a better perspective on what is going on in the house from a high.
With a neck disc that squeaker toy does not sound like a good idea as too much jaw and neck action can be going on for that early healing disc.
|
|
StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
|
Post by StevieLuv on Oct 18, 2014 9:40:33 GMT -7
Some members like these. Here are videos to keep them entertained or calm: petsittervideos.com/ and www.petmusic.com/
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Oct 20, 2014 7:35:58 GMT -7
Small update--Trixie has been trying to move around a bit more--meaning as opposed to simply laying on her side and flipping over to the other side--she is actually trying to sit up and/or lay flat on her belly. Not sure if this is out of "hurt" for laying on her sides for weeks or that she "can" actually feel the need to lay flat. No whining or anything, so I assume she is getting to where she can do more than simply lie on her side. No progress with legs. Still wants to move rightsides but can't control leftsides (especially front left) when going potty.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
|
Post by PaulaM on Oct 20, 2014 10:00:22 GMT -7
Marcie, this sounds very positive, having the ability to give it a try to lie on her belly and attempt to sit up!!!!
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Oct 20, 2014 10:48:26 GMT -7
I feel what is preventing her from doing this more is her inability to bend her hind legs. Meaning this are just plum stiff. Is there something I should be asking my vet for that will help this "stiffness"?
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
|
Post by PaulaM on Oct 20, 2014 12:58:55 GMT -7
Marcie, when the pred had been tapered and no signs of pain, then it will be time to do some very, very, light least aggressive range of motion and massage for her legs. More detail that you can discuss with your vet here, the info highlighted in PINK: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/massagepassiveexercises.htm
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Oct 23, 2014 4:17:56 GMT -7
Yesterday Trixie had an appointment with a vet for acupuncture and laser therapy. They also did X-rays-ruled stuff other than disc issues. Said there were irregularities in the spacing of discs at the neck. They also did all the pinching, pulling etc. She will do 5 more laser therapy sessions over the next 2 weeks and two more acupuncture sessions as well. They also gave an injection of adequan.
Any input on how often others have done acupuncture and laser therapy?
|
|
StevieLuv
Helpful Member
Conservative Treatment 3x. It really does work!
Posts: 1,335
|
Post by StevieLuv on Oct 25, 2014 9:17:02 GMT -7
Ste4vie had acupuncture twice a week for a couple of weeks, then once a week, then every other week, then once every 3 weeks then once a month for maintenance. She had laser treatments each time. We continued with the acupuncture because it made her feel so good
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Oct 30, 2014 18:22:42 GMT -7
Trixie had her 2nd session of acupuncture and 4 session of laser therapy. She tried to stand up on her own during the vet visit and stood for a few minutes on her own. I saw a lot more reaction to both treatments and the vet was optimistic about what we saw from Trixie. She is still on prednisone and Tramadol.
Does anyone have experience with a supplement called cissus quadrangularis?
|
|
|
Post by Pauliana on Oct 31, 2014 20:32:18 GMT -7
Hi Marcie, It is best while a dog is on any prescription medications while recovering in crate rest, not to add any supplements or herbs that could cause any confusion about the culprit should gastro-intestinal problems develop such as vomiting, loose stools, diarrhea, or even gas. Supplements can cause those too and it would be important to be able to definitively identify the cause quickly in order to take actions to treat the problem. After all IVDD medications have been stopped, some supplements can maximize healing during this critical period in recovery. "Cissus quandrangularis contains vitamins and steroid which are found to have a specific effect on bone fracture healing. The anabolic steroidal principle from Cissus quandrangularis shows a marked influence on the rate of fracture healing by influencing early regeneration of all connective tissues involved in the healing and quicker mineralization of callus. There was shortening of about two weeks in the duration of bone healing.." www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3343389/The important thing to remember is Trixie is already taking Prednisone, a steroid and she should never take two steriods at the same time.. I read that Cissus quandrangularis can possibly heal bone but discs are quite different: "Discs are unique as well. A joint of the appendicular skeleton, say a knee or elbow, has a capsule which secretes a lubricating fluid. The bones are capped with smooth cartilage to facilitate frictionless gliding as the surfaces move during flexion and extension. The disc is nothing like this. It is more like a cushion between the end plates of the vertebrae. It is round (hence the name “disc”) and fibrous on the outside with a soft gelatinous inside to absorb the forces to which the bones are exposed." Cissus quandrangularis is also a member of the grape family and grapes are toxic to dogs..
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
|
Post by PaulaM on Nov 1, 2014 8:44:52 GMT -7
Marcie you did not say what prompts you to ask about Cissus quandrangularis. Is your vet wanting to prescribe or did you read about it and wonder? I agree with Pauliana, that while on the needed big gun IVDD meds, it is best to not add in other herbs, supplements. All herbs, supplements and even what we think as benign water can be toxic to the body. Then there is the mixing of them with FDA approved medicines that warrants reading and research to know if safe. Anabolic steroids akin to the Cissus quandrangularis are the type of steroids some body builders and athletes take. Trixie is on a glucocorticosteroid, prednisone, that kind of steroid has anti-inflammatory properties to get the swelling down in the spinal cord. Doing your homework to Google, and read up on everything that might go in your dog's body is very prudent. In fact that is the goal of our Forum is to support you, to teach you how to learn to look up things, question everything and read so you become the most important part of your dog's health care team. Dr. Nancy Kay, DVM, ACVIM comment is very pointed especially to our IVDD dogs: "Gone are the days when you simply followed your vet's orders and asked few, if any questions. The vet is now a member of your dog's health-care team, and you get to be the team captain!" www.speakingforspot.com/PDF/Medical%20Advocacy%20101.pdfExcellent news on the ability to make motions to move up into a standing position herself!!! That bodes very well for more neuro functions to self repair with time. No one wants to use the powerhouse IVDD meds one bit longer than necessary as they all have side effects. It is has been since Oct 3 she is on Pred. Has there been discussion to start a test taper to see if Pred is still needed? On the taper down the pain med is also stopped to have a clear picture. If any hint of pain surfaces, then it is know there is more work for Pred to do. If no signs of pain then pred goes to an every other day dose and finally just stops. No medications of any kind are needed. Good background reading so you can discuss this topic with your vet: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingsweling.htm Rule of thumb is: pain = swelling = more time on anti-inflammatory, pain meds and Pepcid AC needed. Is Trixie still on Pepcid AC 5mg 2x/day? What is the current dose in mg for Tramadol and Pred. How often do you give each?
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Nov 1, 2014 17:46:28 GMT -7
Thank you both for the feedback.
I found the supplement in a pet store. The vet has not recommended it and Trixie hasn't been given any of it.
The vet wants to continue Trixie on once a day prednisone- 2.5 mg (1/4 of a 10mg pill) with the Pepcid AC at bfast. She is also on Tramadol 12.5 mg twice a day. Typically at bfast and with dinner. She is getting the injection of adequan, so far she has had 4 injections.
|
|
Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
|
Post by Sabrina on Nov 5, 2014 11:24:22 GMT -7
Hi Marcie, I'm Sabrina. I'm just getting caught up on Trixie's story. How has everything been going for you and her these past few days?
))Hugs!(( - Sabrina
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Nov 6, 2014 9:02:32 GMT -7
Hi Sabrina--Trixie is about the same. A little more wanting to move around but still not able to put weight on the front legs and hold herself for more than a few seconds. She has her third round of acupuncture and 6th laser session this afternoon. Going to also talk to vet about completing the taper of the prednisone and pain meds as well today.
|
|
Sabrina
Helpful Member
My Charley-dog, a Dodger'sList grad enjoying life!
Posts: 471
|
Post by Sabrina on Nov 7, 2014 12:53:27 GMT -7
Hi Marcie!
Great news that Trixie is holding her own neurologically! Nerves can heal weeks/months/years later, so there's no "expiration date" on nerve healing.
Did the vet have you start the taper?
))Hugs!(( - Sabrina
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Nov 8, 2014 6:29:47 GMT -7
Update: the vet wasn't pleased with Trixie's progress. Thought there would have been more progress. Said she was really tense and increased the ▲prednisone to twice a day and added a muscle relaxer. The vet was concerned about quality of life for Trixie. Well duh, so am I. The vet recommended 3 more weeks of "let's throw everything at this and hope for the best".
Will do twice a week acupuncture, up from once a week. Laser twice a week. Added water therapy twice a week.
I am hopeful Trixie will show some signs of getting better but I am also realistic. It has been 5 weeks.
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
|
Post by PaulaM on Nov 8, 2014 8:23:19 GMT -7
Marcie you have a vet who is CLUELESS when dealing with a disc episode. Being realistic includes knowing that it can take months for nerves to self repair, not 5 weeks nor 3 more weeks of throwing every at her. This is where your knowledge plays an important roll to step up to the plate to be Trixie's health care team leader. The summary page on conservative treatment is a quick overview to put things in perspective about how long for pain, for disc repair, how long for nerve repair: www.dodgerslist.com/literature/healingpage.htmThe single most important care you can give is the 100% STRICT crate rest 24/7 only out at potty times for 8 weeks. Movement is what disrupts an early healing disc causing it to retear. Water therapy is totally, absolutely contradictory to conservative treatment during the 8 weeks it takes to heal a disc. Being a savvy IVDD pet owner, means you recognize red flag harmful advice, treatments and just say "no thank you" It means possibly hiring another vet who is more ivdd knowledgable. There are good reasons to be on prednisone, your report of being tense is not very clarifying if that is a reason or not. "Progress" in what department, what does progress mean? Certainly self repair of nerves "progress" is not going to be addressed by being back on prednisone. "Progress" is he talking about Trixie being in pain? Can you get a 2nd opinion by finding a new vet? What are the details on the current med list.... name of each, dose in mgs and how often you give them?
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Nov 8, 2014 9:15:34 GMT -7
This is the third vet I have been to. I think the vet meant progress to mean Trixie was still knuckling both left sides. She is and has been very strong with the right hind leg. That one was never affected by her issues.
I will have to update meds when I get home. I am at the vet now for acupuncture. The vet increased the ▲prednisone because she detected Trixie being tense in the neck area. I honestly didn't think Trixie is in pain when she was on the extended 1 a day prednisone taper.
Sorry for my very delayed response. Here are the updated Meds that Trixie is on [11 lbs] Prednisone 10mg 1/4 twice a day Tramadol 50mg 1/4 twice a day Robaxin 500mg 1/4 2-3 times day (I have been giving twice a day)
|
|
PaulaM
Moderator.
Member since 2007: surgery, conservative . Montana, USA
Posts: 19,493
|
Post by PaulaM on Nov 9, 2014 21:29:19 GMT -7
Marcie, is Pepcid AC still on board @ 5mg 2x/day?
Is water therapy definately off the table. What about the knuckling, able to right the front paws correctly now, can she put weight on the front legs now?
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Nov 10, 2014 5:26:30 GMT -7
Yes. She still gets the Pepcid AC twice a day.
She knuckles left rear paw still. If I place her on all fours when going potty, she will hold for a few seconds before leaning one way or the other. I do this with her sling. She still kicks pretty good with her rear legs.
|
|
Marjorie
Moderator~
Member since 2011. Surgery & Conservative
Posts: 5,722
|
Post by Marjorie on Nov 10, 2014 5:43:01 GMT -7
The nerve damage that you're seeing (knuckling) may or may not improve during the 8 weeks of crate rest. Nerves have no time table for healing and can take a long time to heal. The goal at this point is to keep pain under control. The Prednisone will address the swelling pressing on the spine and hopefully when a taper is again attempted, there will be no signs of pain, which will mean that the swelling has resolved. The tenseness in Trixie's neck indicated pain and that's why the vet increased the Prednisone.
We're concerned about the vet's instructions for water therapy during conservative care. Please confirm that you will not take Trixie for water therapy during the 8 weeks of crate rest. Acupuncture is a good therapy to be doing at this time but water therapy is too much movement for a dog with an injured disc that has not yet healed.
Healing prayers for Trixie.
|
|
|
Post by Marcie & Bradley on Nov 14, 2014 18:42:08 GMT -7
Long week. I have been out of town since Monday. Trixie hasn't done water therapy any more. She did have acupuncture and laser Monday and laser today. I feel like she really wants her hind legs to go while the front are still pretty lame. Her spirit seems good. She was happy to see me when I got home. Wagged her tail a bunch and squeaked her toy a few times.
Same meds and no indication of the vet wanted to taper at this point. I will ask the vet Modnay about doing that.
|
|